Talk:Semantic Wiki

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Revision as of 08:53, 5 February 2009 by Chénier (talk | contribs) (→‎So far)
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Redirects

How should we deal with them? I figure a realm should have a [[Government::Theocracy]] tag so that we can have a table, in the wiki, sort the realms by the government system, just like IG. However, "Theocracy" re-directs to "Government System", and as such the realm is listed as having "Government System" as "Government" instead of "Theocracy". How should we address this? -Chénier 03:51, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Switching it for a Type:String seems to have addressed the issue I saw. Seems fixed, for now. -Chénier 04:16, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Kudos

Once the battlemaster data can be extended to the wiki to remove manual inputs and have the wiki truly automaticly update itself, we'll be in a whole new, more user-friendly era of the game's wiki. The game could then compensate for the holes this will leave in the wiki's history files (okay, Bob is ruler now, but who was before him?), by having its own history logs which would also be a lot more accurate and reliable than manual inputs (if a page is only modified twice in three years, there is a good chance that there is a few judges and generals that have passed between both versions of the page). Anyways, I'm seeing great potential for this. First application I started is for realms, with functions for each council positions, number of nobles, of regions, the population, largest city, capital, state religion, and government type, though this could also be extended to include estimated food and gold production, as is available IG. Religions could also use their own system, as other cases could... We'll need a page like Meta:Style Guide so that we don't start seeing clone functions ("Island" and "Continent", for example). Anyways, this is quite an amazing step forward for the game's wiki, kudos for that. -Chénier 04:31, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

So far

I'm not sure on which page you'll want this, and how you'll want it displayed... here's what we got so far, anyways.

  • Property::Island - has type::string
  • Property::Population - has type::Number
  • Property:Ruler‎ - type::string
  • Property:Modification - has type::string
  • Property:State Religion‎ - has type::page
  • Property:Realm Name‎ - has type::page
  • Property:Largest City‎ - has type::page
  • Property:Judge‎ - has type::string
  • Property:Government - has type::string
  • Property:General‎ - has type::string
  • Property:Capital‎ - has type::page
  • Property:Banker‎ - has type::string
  • Property:Region Number‎ - has type::Number
  • Property:Nobles‎ - has type::Number

-Chénier 04:54, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

A lot of these are good, some not. "Capital", for example does not denote a semantic relation. "capital of" does. Likewise, my first try "Island" sucks, "located on" is the semantic relation. "largest city" is an absolute no-go. That's exactly the kind of crap that we want to get rid of! We want "population", and then finding out the largest city is a simple query away. Besides, "largest city" of what? the realm? the island? the weather area? the player has ever seen?
All positions and other rapidly-changing data is a topic all for itself. It probably requires additional data such as dates (from when until when?).
AS I said, there's probably a little bit of discussion and refinement before we should start actually changing stuff.
--Tom 08:06, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
I probably misunderstood the pages, I figured "capital of" only worked on the capital's page, and since we have that info on the realm's pages, and not on the region's page, it wouldn't apply. I did, though, learn all of this yesterday night, so maybe I didn't get it right? "located on" works great either way, though, but does "capital of" in this context? See: http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/Germany and Inverse relationships. I see where you are going, though. -Chénier 16:00, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Yes, the relation direction has to be clear. "Capital" isn't. It could mean "the current page is the capital of this link" but also "this link goes to the capital of the current page". When you extend it to "capital of", it becomes clear, because [[capital of::XYZ]] on a page ABC does not really offer itself to the interpretation that XYZ is the capital of ABC. So you need an inverse, which could be [[has capital::ABC]], for example. --Tom 17:16, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I can understand the need for more precision, but if you put [[capital of::X]] on the ream page of Y, that will mean that the realm Y is the capital of the region X. The examples given were for the Berlin page, not the Germany page, and on the BM wiki, we don't write on the Fengen page "This is the capital of Enweil", we write on the Enweil page "Fengen is the capital of this realm". Therefore, if we want a more precise term, we could use [[capital is::X]]. However, I don't think that in this given case it is necessary: All "links" are "property" of "page", that's how the system seems to sort it, and inverse properties are manually inverted duplicates. For example, the system clearly knows that [[Population::X]] means that "Page" has a population of "X". As such, it could be assumed that the "capital" property is treated the same, [[capital::X]]: "X" is the "capital" of "Page". The possessives only seem necessary when this is not the case. -Chénier 22:43, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
But you have an implicit assumption in there, and that's bad because you can not be sure everyone shares it. "capital is" is clear, as is "capital of". Just "capital" could be either. What we might want to do is invent a clear and consistent terminology, for example:
  • "has ..." - subject of this page has something that belongs to it, e.g. a capital
  • "is ..." - subject has a property, e.g. "is realm" or "is region"
  • "... of" - subject belongs to a greater whole, e.g. is capital of a realm, or knight of a region

--Tom 22:55, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Does the system use that, or is that for humans to better understand? For example, should we say "has population::X", or is "population::X" enough? 'cause if the system doesn't think Bobistan is the population of 500, then it shouldn't think that Fronen is the capital of Vur Hagin either. -Chénier 22:58, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
I think I would set it up like this:
  • If the value is intended to be a wiki page, then go like this:
    • "Region" [[is capital::Realm]]
    • "Realm" [[has capital::Region]]
Alternatively, you can skip tagging the region at all. What you can do is put an inline query on *every* region page with a query something like: {{#show: [[Category:Realms]] [[has capital::{{SUBPAGENAME}}]] | Intro=Capital of:_}}. The syntax is probably foobar, but basically if that region is the capital of a realm, a line would show up in the infobox stating that it is the capital of a realm. If it is not the capital of the realm, the line would not be shown at all. This would then make the region page more dynamic. If a new realm is added, the region page for it's capital would automatically list it. If any other realm moves their capital, then the region pages update automatically to reflect it.
  • If the target is NOT a wiki page, then skip the is/has/of and just state the property:
    • "Population::XX,XXX"
    • "Nobles::XX"
  • Manual region counts can be replaced with something like: {{#show: [[Category:Regions]] [[Part of::{{PAGENAME}}]] | Intro=Regions: | format = count}}
--Indirik 03:58, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Oh, yup, its all clear. I was a little tired yesterday when I wrote all of that, seems like you were very clear from the start, I misunderstood. -Chénier 06:53, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Infoboxes

We have a lot of templates for stuff like region or realm info. Unfortunately, there are several competing options, such as Template:Infobox Regions and Template:Infobox region.

To avoid confusion, I suggest we take one of them, a good, clean one (I'd go with Template:Infobox region from the above list) and modify it for semantics, then put it up and update all region pages. I can automatically create the template data from the database, that would make things a ton easier.

We should also have a good naming scheme. Something like the "Infobox" prefix, which appears to be widely popular. Someone with an idea for an equally catchy term?

Speaking from a slightly biased point of view, I'd dump all the separate templates and go with the RealmBox Project. I'm sure I could modify that one to include the necessary semantic stuff. Especially through the use of the composite templates. RealmBox can also be configured to be used for regional infoboxes and religion boxes, too, as shown in RealmBox Project/Customizing. Using RealmBox people can still have their realm's template look different, but be based on the same template.
I agree with Indirik. In fact, I was already working to get everyone to use Realm Box, but I didn't want to just trample through all their templates without asking about changing it so its been slow progress. --Vita Family 14:58, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Good, let's do that. Set the Realm Box up for semantic and then move everything over. Quite a few of the templates in existence are not used at all, so we could also remove them. See Special:UnusedTemplates. --Tom 17:16, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Unused Templates are deleted. --Vita Family 18:17, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Options for Region Info templates

(add those you found)

Options for Realm Info templates

(add those you found)

Unintentional Changes Made?

Since the Semantic Wiki update it no longer appears possible to embed external images inside wiki pages. As a lot of realm pages and nearly all region pages only link their image files, it would be great if that could be fixed (Example 1, Example 2. I've also noticed that if you try to access someone's family page on the wiki via their user page, it now only brings you to the Wiki Main Page (though I suppose that has more to do with the recent code update) --Revan 16:43, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

It also seems that TOCs no longer have text wrap around them making them extremely annoying to have in the wiki, especially when using larger images or templates at the top of a page. --Vita Family 16:56, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

These have nothing to do with Semantic MediaWiki, but are very likely caused by the MediaWiki update I had to make before adding it. I'll try to fix them. --Tom 17:17, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Proposed Terms

Here's a list of terms I came up with that we could use:

hierarchical relations

  • "part of" - denoting that a region is part of a realm, duchy, etc. and similar cases where one object belongs to another
  • "member of" - is the equivalent for persons, e.g. a character is a "member of" a realm, or a religion, etc.
  • "located on" - is for geographical relations. We could use "part of" for this, but the relation is different and "located on" can also be used for unique items, religions and even people, so it's more general
  • "capital of" - is a special relation, and quite specific because it will be searched for. This is to be put on the region page, i.e. "Madina (City)" would contain [[capital of::Madina (Realm)]] the inverse would be "has capital" (see below)
  • "... of" - is the general variant of "capital of", it is mostly intended for things like "judge of", which could be used on a character page to detail positions. examples:
    • ruler, general, judge, banker (of a realm)
    • knight or lord (of a region)
  • "has ..." - is the inverse of the above "... of" relationship, e.g. a realm [[has judge::xxx]]

region data

  • population
  • region type
  • location feature - this expresses things like mountains, rivers, coast, etc.
  • gold production
  • food production
  • location
  • weather area

realm data

  • government is - the type of government
  • founding date
  • state/official/main religion (one term, please - I suggest "has official religion" - a "main" religion could a) change over time and can b) be determined automatically in theory.

guild and religion data

  • founding date
  • has founder (who created it, especially for religions) - the inverse would be "founder of"

unique items data

  • discovered date
  • discovered by
  • (something to indicate if the item is presently owned by someone or lost, maybe?)
  • has special bonus

characters

  • "father/son/brother/etc of" - this can denote actual family relations. Membership in a family would, of course, be described as "member of".

-Tom Added some, as this is a talk page we can just add and edit, I expect?-Chénier 23:13, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes. I have removed all the "number" things, though. That is exactly what we do not want in a semantic web - stuff that has to be corrected manually all the time and could be calculated. --Tom 06:40, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
I think there's some confusion here. Depends on what the answer to my other question is, though... But the way I see it, if you put [[capital of::Fengen]] on the [[Enweil]] page, the relation created will be: "Enweil" is the capital of "Fengen", which isn't the case. I'm not saying I necessarily got it right, though, but given the example with germany and berlin on their website, that seems to be what it is. As such, you'll want the property [[has ruler::bob]] instead of [[ruler of::bob]], as the latter sates that your page is the ruler of Bob, instead of Bob being the ruler of the page. (Needs to resign, not closing <nowiki> erased it)
Oh, that's what you said. I could have sworn it wasn't there a second ago. Well, good, seems like we both understand it the same way:) (Needs to resign, not closing <nowiki> erased it)
That's exactly what I said and why I want a little more expressive terms. When you use "has ruler" and "ruler of" instead of just "ruler", it becomes immediately obvious that "ruler of::bob" makes no sense. --Tom 06:40, 5 February 2009 (UTC)


Should be a term connecting a character to a family. Having trouble thinking of what though.--Athins 02:38, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
"member of" should cover family relations. The cool thing is that you can also model actual relations using semantic terms, so "son of" and "father of" works great, as does "brother of". I'll add a category for that. --Tom 06:40, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
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