Talk:Sanguis Astroism/Structure

Suggested new church rank names

I have come up with the following suggestions for new church rank names. I think these new names will add quite a bit more RP favor, and help create a more unique atmosphere in SA.

Current Title	Requirements	New Title
Holy Prophet		Celestial Prophet
Cardinal of the Maddening Star	Appointed by Prophet	Light of Maddening
Cardinal of the Auspicious Star	Appointed by Prophet	Light of Auspicious
Cardinal of the Austere Star	Appointed by Prophet	Light of Austere
Arch Bishop	Priest/Ruler of a Theocracy	Grande Luminary
Bishop	Priest/Lord	Luminary
Deacon	Priest	Illuminated
Inquisitor	Judge of a Theocracy	Seeker of the Light
Special Envoy	Agent of the Church	Envoy of the Stars
Guardian of the Temple	Warders	Guardian of the Temple
Commander of the Temple	Ruler of a Theocracy, not a Priest	Commander of the Temple
Knight of the Temple	Regular full member	Knight of the Temple
Knight of the Faith	Aspirant rank, RPd as full, doesn't want all messages	Knight of the Faith
Novice		Novice
Aspirant		Aspirant

The three Lights could together be know as the Council of Lights, for making big church decisions.

Feel free to leave any more suggestions here. --Indirik (talk), Editor (talk) 00:34, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I like the idea of replacing Cardinals by Lights. Hierarch is the Eastern name for an ordinary, or one who ordains, and is as much connected to christianity than bishop is. What if we replaced Hierarch by Illuminated and Hierophant by Keeper of the Light? vonGenf 05:48, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. I have replaced "Hierarch" with "Luminary" and "Grande Hierarch" with "Grande Luminary". Luminary is an astrology term (although it deals with sun and moon, rather than stars). I may have to look more into astrology to get some additional background and terminology, since SA is basically a form of Astrology. --Indirik (talk), Editor (talk) 14:21, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Nice, I like Luminary. I was looking for something between Light and Illuminated, this fits perfectly.

Can I ask why Grande and not Grand? vonGenf 14:36, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Grande (or Gradnee) was the modifier used for aristocratic titles in Spain, Pertugal, etc. It apparently means "great one". I think it also looks a bit fancier than just "Grand". --Indirik (talk), Editor (talk) 22:39, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

It also looks feminine and fake in french, not fancy. I'm a fan of keeping language separates, although "Great Luminary" would be more english, I guess. It doesn't matter that much. vonGenf 08:59, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm a fan! Rob, your Wiki skillz! are 1337. --Allison 18:07, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't really like the whole light/getting enlightened concept. Being enlightened is about as Christian as can be (at least it relates to me that way), and that's kind of what we're trying to move away from. In fact, I think the current rank names reflect a fictional religion much better than ranks designed in a certain way just to be different. Besides, the Stars are to be worshipped whether they are bright or dark, so not seeing them should not have anything to do with it. Maybe rank names that are a bit more feeling-oriented could be more accurate? I wouldn't know of any words to use though. --Enstance Family

The concept of "Logos" (Light/Word/Wisdom) is definitely pre-Christian, and I think enlightenment is pretty much independent of any one religion. I like the new ranks a lot! Though the e on Grande does seem slightly out of place. --Hroppa 21:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think any of the titles really has anything to do with being "enlightened". But in any case, enlightened is a fairly generic term. In SA we talk a lot about the Stars shining their light, and things like that. So having titles based on the light of the Stars seemed rather in keeping with the RP we have. It took me quite a while to come up with these. It's hard to find English words that could be used as religious titles, without ending up with a title that's used somewhere in one of the branches of the Catholic church! --Indirik (talk), Editor (talk) 22:39, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the proposition, i like it.

I'm generally in favour, with one exception, being that of Envoy. This is a title that can be conferred upon absolutely anyone who is going about the business of the Prophet or Cardinals. In essence, their relatively high rank is a purely temporary thing indicating the importance not of themselves, but of their employer. A commoner could hold the rank. Giving them a title suggestive of implicit closeness to the Stars isn't entirely in line with the role's concept, at least to my mind. It's a bit of an oddity. --rick 22:48, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

• While we're talking about commoners and rank and reorganizing...is there any possible way for you guys to add a more permanent full member rank for us lowly Dwili advys with an interest in hearing the church discussions? Special Envoy/Envoy of the Stars is higher than some of the other nobles-only positions, so it's not really an option by my understanding. ~Hyral

That's a good idea. Not having played an advy in a long time, I forgot all about them :) I'll see if I can come up with a suitable rank name for commoners as full members. "Knight of the Temple" really doesn't fit there. --Indirik (talk), Editor (talk) 16:22, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh, yes, thanks for the reminder. I had considered "Fellow of the Temple" for commoners, and "Zealot of the Temple" for commoners who took the Guardian Oath.--rick 11:39, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

What do you think of something with Pursuer or Hunter in the title? Since advies are essentially hunters, whether it's monsters, undead, treasure, or religious knowledge, it'll set them apart a little more from the noble ranks (visually, at least). Wouldn't want those commoner germs getting near their fancy titles...~Hyral

One small thing, The prerequisite for Guardian of the Temple is to be a Guardian of the Temple. The Warders are an organized group of Guardians. The Warders used to have their own rank, but some people didn't like that. Since no one has bothered to create a "Guardian" organization similar to the Warders, can we rename the rank back to Warders of the Temple? If another organization is made, it will be quite easy to give them a rank as well. --Allison 00:20, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Warder of the Temple was a religious rank. The Warders of the Temple was a Morekian army. The rank was renamed to remove any confusion that it required Morekian nationality, or specifically referred to Morekians. No-one was supposed to create a Guardian organisation, and if they had I'd have felt obliged to rename the rank again to avoid any sense of patronage. I have no intention of creating multiple ranks just to service different groups who fulfil the same function. If you've taken the oath, you're a Guardian, regardless of nationality, fealty or other affiliation (the only exception I can think of being if you're a commoner, as noted above). --rick 09:56, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Warders of the Temple is also a guild, and only 9 of its 31 members are Xinhaian. That said, it's up to the prophet to decide if he wants to recognize them as special or not. vonGenf 08:32, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Guilds such as the Warders of the Temple, and the Open Hand one in Astrum (whose name escapes me for the moment) are independent, autonomous bodies, so I don't think it appropriate for them to have specific Church ranks, which would effectively signal that the Church officially supported them. The Church doesn't like officially supporting things it doesn't control :) --rick 09:56, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

• As I came to change the rank name (and promote the rank to elder). it occured that Seeker of the Light doesn't convey all the attributes of the Judge in that as well as the investigative side covered by the term 'Seeker' there is also the arbitration element of a Judge in an SA theocracy whereby they are the bridge between church authority and secular authority. Perhaps Justice of the Faithful would cover both elements?--rick 11:59, 26 September 2009 (UTC)