Difference between revisions of "Estates"

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The new estate system is a streamlining of various old system that were only weakly related. It will be getting rid of all the exceptions and special rules and making everything easier and more flexible. It now applies the same concepts on all layers and integrates estates, realm hierarchy, taxes, etc.
+
The Estate system is the basis for the entire realm [[Allegiance|hierarchy]]. It defines the allegiance of the nobility from the lowest of the knights all the way up to the highest of the rulers.
 
 
At the same time, this system reverses the tax flow. Taxes are now collected at the bottom of the hierarchy and some parts of it "trickle up", not the other way around. There is no realm-wide tax collection anymore. Instead, every knight will receive taxes directly from his estate.
 
 
 
  
 
== Hierarchy ==
 
== Hierarchy ==
 
[[Image:Hierarchy2.png]]
 
[[Image:Hierarchy2.png]]
  
The hierarchy is simple, but consistent on all levels now.
+
The hierarchy is simple, but consistent on all levels:
* An estate is always a part of a region. The lord of the region can, but doesn't have to have an estate. If he has, it must be in his region (can't be lord of region A and have an estate in region B).
+
* An estate is always a part of a region. The lord of the region can, but doesn't have to, have an estate. If he has, it must be in his region (can't be lord of region A and have an estate in region B).
* Regions are ''always'' part of a duchy - no more "imperial regions". However, there can be duchies with only one region in them.
+
* Regions are ''always'' part of a duchy - there are no "imperial regions". However, there can be duchies with only one region in them. It is also possible for duchies to exist, and still have a Duke, without any regions at all.
* Duchies are their own entities now, meaning the duke does not have to be the lord of the duchy capital. In fact, there is no such thing as a duchy capital. The duke does not even have to be a lord. In addition, duchies can be created and dissolved, with some limitations.
+
* Duchies are their own entities now, meaning the duke does not have to be the lord of the duchy capital. In fact, there is no such thing as a duchy capital. The duke does not even have to be a lord. In addition, duchies can be created and dissolved by the ruler of a realm, with some limitations.
 
* Duchies form realms. As before, the king does not have to be a duke.
 
* Duchies form realms. As before, the king does not have to be a duke.
  
 
Now for the somewhat trickier parts, assignements:
 
Now for the somewhat trickier parts, assignements:
* Region lords define estates and anyone who comes by can take an available estate for themselves. This is much simpler than the old oaths system, because game-mechanics-wise the lord can also kick out a knight at any time. Knights can only leave and/or take up an estate once per turn, to prevent griefing and some obvious abuses.
+
* Region lords define estates and anyone who comes by can take an available estate for themselves. The lord can also kick out a knight at any time. Knights can only leave and/or take up an estate once per turn.
* Lords are appointed by dukes and dukes are appointed by kings. The realm government system defines whether or not they can also be kicked out or not. (initially, they can not in any system, but we will be adding that for some systems later on.)
+
* Lords are appointed by dukes (or election) and dukes are appointed by rulers. Once appointed, a duke or lord cannot be removed by the noble that appointed them.
* Lords can change their region to another duchy and dukes can change their entire duchy to another realm as before. Regardless of diplomatic settings, this is a violation of the oath of fealty and will result in an automatic ban.
+
* Lords can change their region to another duchy and dukes can change their entire duchy to another realm. Regardless of diplomatic settings, this is a violation of the oath of fealty and will changing realms result in an automatic ban.
 
 
  
 
== Estates ==
 
== Estates ==
An estate is a part of a region, currently defined abstractly as a percentage part of the region (e.g. 20% of the region of Keplerville). Everyone can have at
+
An estate is a part of a region, currently defined abstractly as a percentage part of the region (e.g. 20% of the region of Keplerville). Everyone can have at most one estate, and the size of estates is limited. There are minimum and maximum sizes that depend on the region type and size. The minimum sizes go from 5% to 20% while the maximum sizes go from 30% to 50%. So every region will need 2-4 knights (of which the lord can be one) to cover it entirely.
most one estate, and the size of estates is limited. There are minimum and maximum sizes that depend on the region type and size. The minimum sizes go from 5% to 20%
 
while the maximum sizes go from 30% to 50%. So every region will need 2-4 knights (of which the lord can be one) to cover it entirely.
 
  
There will also be a "soft incentive" to not use the maximum sizes unless you have to, and instead offer more knights an estate. My design goal is that in all
+
Estates can be created and resized at will by the region lord, but each adjustment takes 1 hour of the lord's time.
realms that are not severely overcrowded, every character can find an estate.
 
  
Estates can be created and resized at will be the region lord.
+
Vacant estates (those without a knight) and "wild lands" (parts of the region not assigned to an estate) will collect taxes directly to the region lord, but only at half efficiency, so half of the tax income is lost.
  
Vacant estates (those without a knight) and "wild lands" (parts of the region not assigned to an estate) will collect taxes directly to the region lord, but only
+
== Efficiency ==
at half efficiency, so half of the tax income is lost.
+
It is easier to control a limited area than a large area, and tax evaders can become a problem if the size of an estate is too large. Many smaller estates are more efficient than few larger ones.
  
 +
The efficiency of an estate depends on its size and a couple of factors that differ by region (type and population, mostly). It will be listed in the estate display. The efficiency of the estate directly affects the amount of taxes collected by that estate.
  
 
== Taxes ==
 
== Taxes ==
Every level defines the share the levels below contribute up:
+
Under this new system, taxes are collected by the knights in their estates. The details can be found on the [[New Taxes]] page. Rulers tax dukes > dukes tax lords > lords tax knights > knights tax peasants.
* The king decides the "kings share" - the % of income the dukes have to send to him
+
 
* The dukes decide the "dukes shares" - the % of income the lords have to send to them
+
== Example ==
* The lords decide the "lords shares" - the % of income the knights have to send to them
+
 
The hope here is that this will result in multi-level cascading power-struggles. When the king needs more money, he can raise the kings shares. All the dukes now pay more. If they don't want this to reduce their own income, they can raise the dukes shares to compensate. Now the lords pay more. They can raise the lords share. The knights can't do anything to compensate, they have to eat it up. But they are many, and pissing them all off is a bad idea.
+
====''Example 1 - Lord and a Knight''====
 +
 
 +
Region A is divided between the Lord of the region and a Knight. Region A's Tax Rate is at 10%. The Lord of the region taxes his knight for 50%. The region's estates are distributed equally among the Lord and the Knight meaning each has 50% of the region's estates. The Lord's estates have the efficiency of 75% while the Knight's estates have 80%. The region produces 500 gold a week and buildings upkeep costs the region 50 gold a week.
 +
 
 +
''' Tax Report '''
 +
Peasants Taxes  = 500 gold
 +
 
 +
Buildings Upkeep = -50 gold
 +
 
 +
Militia Payment = 0 gold
 +
 
 +
Collectable Tax Gold = 450 gold
 +
 
 +
''' Knight Share '''
 +
The Knight will get 50% of the Collectable Tax Gold which is 225 gold because he has 50% of the estates in the region. But since the efficiency of his estates is at 80%, he will only get 80% of 225 gold which is 180 gold. However, the Lord collects 50% of his share, thus leaving the Knight with 90 gold.
 +
 
 +
(Collectable Tax Gold)*(Estate Size)*(Efficiency)*((100-Lord's share)/100) = Knight's income
 +
 
 +
450*0.5*0.8*0.5 = 90 gold
 +
 
 +
''' Lord Share '''
 +
The Lord will also get 50% of the Collectable Tax Gold like the knight. But his efficiency is lower than that of his knight. He will only get 75% of his 225 gold whic is 168 gold (Always rounded down). But he taxes his knight at 50%, thus he gains additional 90 gold. So the Lord's weekly income is 258 gold.
 +
 
 +
(Collectable Tax Gold)*(Estate Size)*(Efficiency)+(Taxed Knight Share) = Lord's income
 +
 
 +
450*0.5*0.75+90 = 258 gold
 +
 
 +
From this example, you can see that it is better for the lord to have more knights. The more knights a lord has, higher his income will be as estates will become more efficient.
 +
 
 +
Here is an example if there is no knight in a region.
 +
 
 +
====''Example 2 - Lord alone''====
 +
 
 +
Region B, like Region A, has an income of 500 gold at 10%. The region is ruled by its Lord alone. Everything is the same as Region A except half of the region is wildlands (50% efficiency).
  
Taxes are collected by the knights, with the region lords setting the regional tax rate and the banker setting the tax collection day, as currently. Land that is not managed by a knight (i.e. vacant estates and land not assigned to estates, called "wild lands") collect taxes at only 50% efficiency.
+
''' Tax Report '''
 +
Peasants Taxes = 500 gold
  
Basically, we have a waterfall model: Knights collect taxes and pass on the lords share to the region lord. The region lord gets his own estate income and the lords share and passes on the dukes share to the duke. A duke can have income as a knight, lord and the dukes share and from all that must pass the kings share to the king. The king can have income on all levels, if he really bothers.
+
Buildings Upkeep = -50 gold
  
 +
Militia Payment = 0 gold
  
=== Example ===
+
Collectable Tax Gold = 450 gold
Andrew, knight of a 20% estate in Keplerville, collects 66 gold from the peasants within his estate.
 
The lords share of Keplerville is 30%, so Andrew gets to keep 46 gold and sends 20 gold to the lord of Keplerville.
 
  
Brian, lord of Keplerville does not have an estate (for simplicity in this example), but collects lords shares from all estates, as well as the half-taxes from vacant estates and wild lands, for a total of 132 gold.
+
''' Wildlands '''
Keplerville is part of the duchy of Keplerduck, where the dukes share is set at 33%. Brian gets to keep 88 gold and must send 44 gold to the duke of Keplerduck.
 
If Brian also had an estate, that estate would not have a lords share (it would both end up in his pockets anyways), and the dukes share would be calculated from his total income, including his estate collection.
 
  
Corwin, duke of Keplerduck, is neither lord nor knight (again, for simplicity). The regions in his duchy grant him a total income of 230 gold.
+
Just like estates, wildlands get 50% of the Collectable Tax Gold which is 225 gold. But the efficiency of wildlands is 50% thus wildlands only generate 50% of 225 gold for the lord.
Keplerduck is, of course, part of Keplerstan. The realm share in Keplerstan is set to 20%, so Corwin gets to keep 191 gold and has to send 39 gold to the ruler.
 
  
=== New Tax Report ===
+
(Collectable Tax Gold)*(Wildlands Size)*(Efficiency) = Added to the Lord's income
(while the duchies and regions used in this example are real, the tax and gold values are not)
 
  
Here is what a region tax report (sent to the lord and knights of a region) looks like:
+
450*0.5*0.5 = 112 gold
  
[[Image:TaxesRegionExample.png]]
+
''' Lord Share '''
 +
Similar to the previous calculation for Region A. Instead of 'Taxed Knight Share', put Wildlands income.
  
Note how the numbers split up within the rows. The "Tax Collected" is split up into a share for the knight and one for the lord. The sum total lord share is then taken into the realm-wide taxes, and the final income is split between the lord and the duke according to the dukes share setting.
+
(Collectable Tax Gold)*(Wildlands Size)*(Efficiency)+Wildlands income = Lord's income
  
The realm-wide tax report looks like this:
+
450*0.5*0.75+112 = 280 gold
  
[[Image:TaxesRealmExample.png]]
+
====''Example 3 - Lord and 3 Knights''====
  
The lord share is what the region lord actually gets to keep. The summed-up duchy share is again split into the part the duke gets to keep and the realm share that is being sent to the ruler. In addition, regional total upkeep (including militia payment) and average knight shares are listed to allow the members of the realm to spot regions that are either interesting due to high income potential or for their excellent economy or militia support.
+
Supporting only one knight is not beneficial for a region lord. But supporting several knights will yield a higher income for the lord. Let's assume that there is Region C which is a copy of Region A and B. But instead of supporting only one knight, the region is supporting three knights. Everyone, including the lord, is in charge of 25% of the peasant population, giving everyone 100% efficiency.
  
 +
''' Tax Report '''
 +
Peasants Taxes  = 500 gold
  
== Transition ==
+
Buildings Upkeep = -50 gold
The new estates will be set up automatically based on current estates, so those who enlarged their estates in the old system will start out with larger estates in the new system. Region lords are strongly encouraged to check the new estates to make sure they are nicely set up. The automatic code will try to match the old distribution, but due to rounding and estate size limits, it could still end up with unassigned land, etc. In fact, early tests indicate that most regions will have parts of their region as wild lands immediately after the transition.
 
  
Lord and duke shares are copied from old tax settings values (lord share and realm share respectively), while the realm share starts at a default value of 25% for all realms. Again, players are strongly recommended to change these settings to represent their realms and desires.
+
Militia Payment = 0 gold
  
 +
Collectable Tax Gold = 450 gold
  
 +
''' Knight Share '''
 +
Each knight gets 25% of the Collectable Tax Gold. Since their efficiency is at 100%, there is no loss of gold due to inefficiency. But the knights still pay 50% of their income to the lord.
  
== Changes to Existing System ==
+
(Collectable Tax Gold)*(Estate Size)*(Efficiency)*((100-Lord's share)/100) = Knight's income
* Things like extra tax and all the other complications will go away.
 
* No more region claims. They were an interesting idea, but didn't contribute as much to the game as I had hoped.
 
* No more good and bad marks. Again, they did not live up to the expectations I had.
 
* Yes, nobles with no estates will have no tax income. But there is space for many more estates in this new system, plus an incentive to give as many people one as possible (see below)
 
* Temples are going to pay taxes again, but at a reduced/half tax rate
 
  
 +
450*0.25*1*0.5= 56 gold
  
== Question I Can Not Yet Answer ==
+
Total Taxed Income from the Knights = 56*3 = 168 gold
* What about property and wealth taxes? Their purpose was to tax the rich and give to the poor. But we don't have a top-down distribution anymore, we have a bottom-up distribution. We could keep these taxes and put them into a realm treasury from where the four government members can access it. But that would give it a different purpose.
 
* How are newly acquired regions (TO, exchange, revolt, etc.) handled, i.e. which duchy will they be assigned to?
 
* How will current imperial regions be assigned to duchies?
 
* What is the future role of the Steward - can he manage estates or not? Probably not, his job is to help the region lord with day-to-day stuff, not major decisions.
 
* What will be the role of the banker in all of this?
 
* You may ask yourself why a lord should have knights and not keep as much of the region income for himself. I have an answer to that, but still working out the details, so not telling right now. But there will be a big incentive for lords to have a fair number of knights.
 
  
 +
''' Lord Share '''
 +
Same as the knights, the lord will not suffer from the loss of gold due to inefficiency.
  
 +
(Collectable Tax Gold)*(Estate Size)*(Efficiency)+(Taxed Knight Share)*(Number of Knights) = Lord's income
  
 +
450*0.25*1+56*3= 280 gold
  
== other pages that need to be updated or removed ==
+
From looking at this example, you might not feel much need for having knights as the income of the lord is the same as the second example. But there is a catch. From the third example, you can yield more gold as the lord as you increase the tax rate. Unlike the second example, you will get full benefit out of investing into your region. Since there is 0% loss of gold from inefficiency, you won't lose any gold from investing into your region.
* [[Allegiance]]
 
* [[Hierarchy System]] and [[Rank]]
 
* [[Politics]]
 
* [[Region Command]] and [[Knight Commands]]
 
* [[Estate]] and [[Estates]]
 
* [[Manual/Realms_and_Regions]]
 
* [[Taxes]] and [[Region_Economy_Example]]
 
* [[Region_Claim]], [[Claims]] and the pages linking there
 
  
 +
== Q&A Log ==
 +
There was an IRC Q&A session regarding the new estate system. Here is an edited log of the session. For ease of reading, it has been reorganized so that the questions and answers are together, and extraneous comments were removed:
  
context-sensitive help pages:
+
[[/IRC Q&A Log/]]
* [[Help:Estate]]
 
* [[Help:Hierarchy]]
 
* [[Help:Taxes]]
 
  
 +
== Old Estate System ==
 +
This new system replaces the [[/Old/]] estate system. The page is preserved for future reference, if necessary.
  
  

Latest revision as of 05:36, 13 June 2012

The Estate system is the basis for the entire realm hierarchy. It defines the allegiance of the nobility from the lowest of the knights all the way up to the highest of the rulers.

Hierarchy

Hierarchy2.png

The hierarchy is simple, but consistent on all levels:

  • An estate is always a part of a region. The lord of the region can, but doesn't have to, have an estate. If he has, it must be in his region (can't be lord of region A and have an estate in region B).
  • Regions are always part of a duchy - there are no "imperial regions". However, there can be duchies with only one region in them. It is also possible for duchies to exist, and still have a Duke, without any regions at all.
  • Duchies are their own entities now, meaning the duke does not have to be the lord of the duchy capital. In fact, there is no such thing as a duchy capital. The duke does not even have to be a lord. In addition, duchies can be created and dissolved by the ruler of a realm, with some limitations.
  • Duchies form realms. As before, the king does not have to be a duke.

Now for the somewhat trickier parts, assignements:

  • Region lords define estates and anyone who comes by can take an available estate for themselves. The lord can also kick out a knight at any time. Knights can only leave and/or take up an estate once per turn.
  • Lords are appointed by dukes (or election) and dukes are appointed by rulers. Once appointed, a duke or lord cannot be removed by the noble that appointed them.
  • Lords can change their region to another duchy and dukes can change their entire duchy to another realm. Regardless of diplomatic settings, this is a violation of the oath of fealty and will changing realms result in an automatic ban.

Estates

An estate is a part of a region, currently defined abstractly as a percentage part of the region (e.g. 20% of the region of Keplerville). Everyone can have at most one estate, and the size of estates is limited. There are minimum and maximum sizes that depend on the region type and size. The minimum sizes go from 5% to 20% while the maximum sizes go from 30% to 50%. So every region will need 2-4 knights (of which the lord can be one) to cover it entirely.

Estates can be created and resized at will by the region lord, but each adjustment takes 1 hour of the lord's time.

Vacant estates (those without a knight) and "wild lands" (parts of the region not assigned to an estate) will collect taxes directly to the region lord, but only at half efficiency, so half of the tax income is lost.

Efficiency

It is easier to control a limited area than a large area, and tax evaders can become a problem if the size of an estate is too large. Many smaller estates are more efficient than few larger ones.

The efficiency of an estate depends on its size and a couple of factors that differ by region (type and population, mostly). It will be listed in the estate display. The efficiency of the estate directly affects the amount of taxes collected by that estate.

Taxes

Under this new system, taxes are collected by the knights in their estates. The details can be found on the New Taxes page. Rulers tax dukes > dukes tax lords > lords tax knights > knights tax peasants.

Example

Example 1 - Lord and a Knight

Region A is divided between the Lord of the region and a Knight. Region A's Tax Rate is at 10%. The Lord of the region taxes his knight for 50%. The region's estates are distributed equally among the Lord and the Knight meaning each has 50% of the region's estates. The Lord's estates have the efficiency of 75% while the Knight's estates have 80%. The region produces 500 gold a week and buildings upkeep costs the region 50 gold a week.

Tax Report Peasants Taxes = 500 gold

Buildings Upkeep = -50 gold

Militia Payment = 0 gold

Collectable Tax Gold = 450 gold

Knight Share The Knight will get 50% of the Collectable Tax Gold which is 225 gold because he has 50% of the estates in the region. But since the efficiency of his estates is at 80%, he will only get 80% of 225 gold which is 180 gold. However, the Lord collects 50% of his share, thus leaving the Knight with 90 gold.

(Collectable Tax Gold)*(Estate Size)*(Efficiency)*((100-Lord's share)/100) = Knight's income

450*0.5*0.8*0.5 = 90 gold

Lord Share The Lord will also get 50% of the Collectable Tax Gold like the knight. But his efficiency is lower than that of his knight. He will only get 75% of his 225 gold whic is 168 gold (Always rounded down). But he taxes his knight at 50%, thus he gains additional 90 gold. So the Lord's weekly income is 258 gold.

(Collectable Tax Gold)*(Estate Size)*(Efficiency)+(Taxed Knight Share) = Lord's income

450*0.5*0.75+90 = 258 gold

From this example, you can see that it is better for the lord to have more knights. The more knights a lord has, higher his income will be as estates will become more efficient.

Here is an example if there is no knight in a region.

Example 2 - Lord alone

Region B, like Region A, has an income of 500 gold at 10%. The region is ruled by its Lord alone. Everything is the same as Region A except half of the region is wildlands (50% efficiency).

Tax Report Peasants Taxes = 500 gold

Buildings Upkeep = -50 gold

Militia Payment = 0 gold

Collectable Tax Gold = 450 gold

Wildlands

Just like estates, wildlands get 50% of the Collectable Tax Gold which is 225 gold. But the efficiency of wildlands is 50% thus wildlands only generate 50% of 225 gold for the lord.

(Collectable Tax Gold)*(Wildlands Size)*(Efficiency) = Added to the Lord's income

450*0.5*0.5 = 112 gold

Lord Share Similar to the previous calculation for Region A. Instead of 'Taxed Knight Share', put Wildlands income.

(Collectable Tax Gold)*(Wildlands Size)*(Efficiency)+Wildlands income = Lord's income

450*0.5*0.75+112 = 280 gold

Example 3 - Lord and 3 Knights

Supporting only one knight is not beneficial for a region lord. But supporting several knights will yield a higher income for the lord. Let's assume that there is Region C which is a copy of Region A and B. But instead of supporting only one knight, the region is supporting three knights. Everyone, including the lord, is in charge of 25% of the peasant population, giving everyone 100% efficiency.

Tax Report Peasants Taxes = 500 gold

Buildings Upkeep = -50 gold

Militia Payment = 0 gold

Collectable Tax Gold = 450 gold

Knight Share Each knight gets 25% of the Collectable Tax Gold. Since their efficiency is at 100%, there is no loss of gold due to inefficiency. But the knights still pay 50% of their income to the lord.

(Collectable Tax Gold)*(Estate Size)*(Efficiency)*((100-Lord's share)/100) = Knight's income

450*0.25*1*0.5= 56 gold

Total Taxed Income from the Knights = 56*3 = 168 gold

Lord Share Same as the knights, the lord will not suffer from the loss of gold due to inefficiency.

(Collectable Tax Gold)*(Estate Size)*(Efficiency)+(Taxed Knight Share)*(Number of Knights) = Lord's income

450*0.25*1+56*3= 280 gold

From looking at this example, you might not feel much need for having knights as the income of the lord is the same as the second example. But there is a catch. From the third example, you can yield more gold as the lord as you increase the tax rate. Unlike the second example, you will get full benefit out of investing into your region. Since there is 0% loss of gold from inefficiency, you won't lose any gold from investing into your region.

Q&A Log

There was an IRC Q&A session regarding the new estate system. Here is an edited log of the session. For ease of reading, it has been reorganized so that the questions and answers are together, and extraneous comments were removed:

IRC Q&A Log

Old Estate System

This new system replaces the Old estate system. The page is preserved for future reference, if necessary.