Talk:The Blue and Gold/Issue:1

-Massillion City can support about 15,000 people, not 20,000. Get your facts straight.
-Massillion has been hungry since Kahooli seceeded, since it's all woodland and can't meet the food demand.
-We're not sending them aid and neither is anyone else, because that would only lift their spirits and resistance.
-Eston has NEVER targeted civilians specifically. We're only interested in stealing gold, so that your Duke-for-a-day won't field more militia for us to kill.
-All foreigners agree: Massillion belongs to Eston. You can keep whining until the cows come home, it won't change that opinion. We've had offers from 4 neighbour realms to help us overrun the city, doesn't that send out a message?

Maybe it's about time you get it through your thick skull that you're fighting a lost battle. Massillion WILL return to Eston, whether you like it or not. You all seem to believe you have a chance at independence. YOU DO NOT. Never had, never will. Every citizen that dies is a direct result of your refusal to give up your pointless battle and surrender. Eston has behaved quite nicely in the beginning, giving you numerous opportunities to surrender without a fight, and you chose to ignore the offers. Today, the citizens of Massillions are paying the price. Maybe you should tell them that, instead of giving them false hope of independence.

Marouane 12:18, 5 August 2006 (CEST)

Actually, Massilion City can support roughly 20500 people a week at full production. --The1exile 15:04, 5 August 2006 (CEST)

Marouane, I shall answer your arguements one by one. 1. Maybe it cant support 20000, but when I was duchess I'm 99% sure that there were at least 16000, and I'm pretty sure it was about 20000. 2. I was duchess of Massillion, and, for a day or two(until Estonite pillagers burnt and killed in our woodlands), we had barely enough food, but it was enough. 3. Of course, you'd like to psychologically destroy the people you claim to care about as well as massacre their brothers, sisters, children, fathers, and friends. Maybe you do it with a sword, maybe you do it with starvation. But you still do it. 4. Never targeted civilians? What about the peasents that have been slain BY THE HUNDREDS? You know, about 1000 or so got together in one go, and you mercillessly began to slay them, when the WILL OF THE PEOPLE is against you. 5. I suppose those foreigners are as deluded as yourself then.

WE did not tell the people those things. THEY told us. We were deciding what to do in a free and democratic way when the PEOPLE ROSE UP AGAINST YOU. This is civil war, brought about by YOU. Massillion is no longer the realm of the Black Duke or of Willy. It is a free realm, with a good prime minister, and devoted TLs. The Black Duke created a fair land, a land of love and peace between fellow men. Only the unlawful aggression of Eston has brought strife to us. Only the murderous assaults of Eston have brought such pain to the goodly Massillionites. Vellos 18:49, 5 August 2006 (CEST)

Sale Barony of Makar 17592 City 883 54 Details
Massillion Massillion 10719 City 840 41 Details
Siver Darka 15000 City 814 47 Details

That means that Massillion's maximum population is between 15,000 and 17,000. Most likely, it will be almost 16,000. So I'm pretty sure you weren't paying much attention during your time in office.

We never attacked '1000 or so in one go'. They attacked us, because your own army is powerless to help them. I think you can agree that when troops come under attack, they should fight back, no? And what about the civilian militia fielded by the Dukes of Massillion? Were they not innocent citizens forced to fight an army ten times stronger?

Civil war brought about by us? Are you kidding me? The people of Massillion were happy with Eston until Kahooli seceded. They have always been the ones least complaining about tax rates and such. They didn't rise up against us out of their own free will, but because they were instigated by Kahooli. And you can drop the 'land of love and peace' argument, because there never has been love and peace in the realm of Massillion for the people of Eston, only hatred and war. They have been brainwashed by Kahoolis lies.

Massillion is still very much the realm of the Black Duke and willy. You did NOTHING to even try and expel them. WE captured Kahooli in Agnilar, and willy fled like a coward, as she always does when things heat up. You're just trying to turn that into your favour by posing as valiant heroes who rid Massillion of evil men. Devoted TLs? Quite a few have come to Eston, some have fled, and a lot of them are rookies who don't follow orders, or don't have the guts to fight.

As I and many others have said before, this is a battle you can't possibly win. You're not going to be allowed to exist, simply because Kahooli has been sent to the Colonies. Massillion is a realm founded on treason and megalomania, and it will serve as an example for anyone who thinks about pulling a similar stunt. As I and many others have said before, Eston has given you NUMEROUS opportunities to limit the suffering of the people. Your 'good' Prime Minister denied them that chance, against better judgement, against common sense. Eston will do what is necessary to bring Massillion back to the realm as fast as possible. We've given you the chance to return peacefully, we've tried the soft approach. Looting was our last resort, and unfortunatly, we've had to use it since all else failed. So drop the victim attitude, Onliana. Your 'good' Prime Minister can end the hostilities with one stroke of a pen. If he refuses... don't say we didn't warn you. -Marouane 16:37, 6 August 2006 (CEST)

I dont even know where to begin... I suppose I shall have to go sequentially again. You did attack OVEr 1000 in one go. They rose up when ruthless Estonites broke into their houses and stole gold(being a new realm, we actually have no tax offices. ALl cash is kept in homes, until citizens give voluntary donations to the TLs of Massillion, its part of how our tax system works). Then, their dinners and cellars were raided(virtually all of our food stock was in the hands of the people, with precious little stored up). They, naturally, became angry at this tyrrannical perversity of their FORMER rulers: Eston. Yes, they loved Eston. But, as with all good-hearted people, they had a desire for FREEDOM. That desire was fulfilled by Kahooli. Kahooli and Willy both proved poor rulers, and were voted out. We did not kick them from the realm, but they didnt maintain their positions, mind you.

There has ALWAYS been love and peace betwixt the people of Massillion, and the nobles of Massillion. The ONLY hate, or war, or what have you has occurred when BROUGHT ABOUT BY INVADERS. We have never had any kind of internal strife. Also, yes, we drafted troops, if you call walking out into the streets and saying, "Would anyone like to repel the invaders?" a draft. We paid them, out of the kindness of our hearts. And, naturally, their families were worried, somewhat dissapointed such violence was necessary, but understanding and still STALWART AND LOYAL. When their beloved brotehrs and fathers died, they rose up against the invaders of their OWN WILL.

Yes, we have devoted TLs. Some have left of course, the cowards. What is left is a core of devoted TLs harrassed by a world-superpower and driven to some disorganization. And to speak of "rookies" as you do is to invite the wrath of the Gods who hurl lightning, and is untrue besides. They all have the guts to fight, which is why they have been following orders very well, when not bleeding to death from Estonite blades or being burned alive by Estonite pillagers or offering their personal food supplies to Massillionite civilians or organizing medical and food relief for peasents.

Estone offerred us an ultimatum: kill yourself or be killed. We were, as best I know, never told, "Send Willy and Kahooli away, and we will let Massillion remain independent." If we had been told that, I know I for one would have accepted it. But we have never been given that option, or any remotely reasonable option. A treaty resulting in the death of one realm is no treaty at all: merely hellish usurpation of the weak by the tyrannical and power hungry strong, a crime worthy of the worst sort of death, and eternal damnation in the life beyond, whatever it may be. (OOC-I hope you udnerstand this is all IC, lol. I really enjoy this kind of RP ;) ) Vellos 17:57, 6 August 2006 (CEST)

Congratulations Onliana, you just killed one of my men. He couldn't stop laughing, ran out of breath and dropped dead on the floor.

Voluntary tax system? Your gold is kept in tax coffers, like everyone elses. Don't try to claim otherwise. NONE of Massillions regions desired freedom from Eston. We checked regularly for independence thoughts, and at no point in time did more than five percent of citizens support any independence movements, and that was after looting raids from Norlanders and Makarians. But of course, you knew that already, since you were in MINAS ITHIL prior to the secession and had access to these reports. Go practice your stand-up comedy act somewhere else. Massillion was not liberated, it was stolen. Your troop leaders are in fact rookies, most don't bother to fight, and those who do are mostly running around in chaos until they run into a wall of Estonite blades. Of course, you can't really blame them for that, as their military commanders don't even have the guts to show up and lead them. And as for Eston 'attacking' those 1,000 men... you've seen the battle report, Eston was the defensive side and only fought the militia because they had no choice.

(OOC: RP, yes, but lets keep it within the boundaries of game mechanics. Anyone can come up with a million reasons to clash with my arguments, but unfortunatly, its mostly fantasy stuff that can't be explained through the game mechanics. Taxes kept in homes, TLs doing food relief, voluntary militia etc... that's, crudely spoken, absolute Bullsh*t with capital B.) -Marouane 19:32, 6 August 2006 (CEST)

No, we do not have tax coffers. I was the duchess, I know. We were a DEMOCRACY. Rule by DIRECT VOTING. A land of freedom. Then we sufferred anarchy, then we were reformed into a republic during these battles and such. We have not had an opportunity to even establish domestic government, save the four ruling positions, and even they remain hectic. (OOC- how did I go out of game mechanics? Loyalty didnt drop when we called up militia, morale did. I creatively explained it. Everything I said matches game MECHANICS, tho its.... a very creative and unique way to match them. I said it first, so, by the sort of... unspoken rules of RP, you need to find a way to get around it. The former duchess of massillion during the regime of the Massillion government would be more knowledgeable concerning massillion law and domestic practices than Marouane, who wasnt ever a member of Massillion. Massillion has always, by its members, been RPed as a free realm of equality and liberty, and one where its nobles all dearly love it and its people, a land of almost familial patriotism. Everything I've said matches, in detail and general mood and idea, to all RPs done concerning Massillion within Massillion.)Vellos 20:10, 6 August 2006 (CEST)