Talk:Redspan Revealer/January Edition 2007

Assassinations

To the speakers for RedSpan: is it often you have your own infiltrators attempt assassinations on fellow nobles? Jezralhm 15:03, 19 January 2007 (CET)

Hmmm ... good point. What's your name? I'm sure our Infiltrators would be happy to pay you a visit and practice their skills on your hairless hide instead. oshea 05:19, 20 January 2007 (CET)

Finegus isn't it? Enjoyed your stay in Darka? Jezralhm 07:05, 20 January 2007 (CET)

I always enjoy visiting and causing havoc for weeks, but the torture I could do without. What's your name? I'd be happy to pay you a visit next time I'm there. -Finegus oshea 16:10, 20 January 2007 (CET)

A simple search here and there would leave you with my name. I am not hiding my identity. Jezralhm 01:21, 21 January 2007 (CET)

Propaganda

Congratulations. Your latest article has made it clear that you are not a newspaper, but a mere propaganda rag. - LilWolf 21:55, 18 January 2007 (CET)

I'm simply reporting the events your realm has announced publicly that our reader might not otherwise notice. --Habap 23:01, 18 January 2007 (CET)

You fail to account for several things, such as that Fade was revealed to be in the underground by the secret police. You make it out like Lavigna made that up herself while offering absolutely no proof of it. You also make the incorrect assumption that it has something to do with Vatticus getting appointed as Marshal. This was an completely separate incident as these people had been in the underground *before* Vatticus was even appointed. Your reference to Darkanism is completely out of place as Darkanism has nothing to do with the whole incident. These combined with your own personal opinions makes the story a mere propaganda piece and not a news story. - LilWolf 23:22, 18 January 2007 (CET)

Have you ever read a RL newspaper? The stories int hem vary alot between each of them. For example, recently there has been rumour that the Royal Navy will scrap some of its ships...these numbers have ranged between 6 and 22 vessels. Every Newspaper saying that this was the "offical" number. But the offical number is that none are actually set, its justa rumour. Newspapers exploit rumours to their best advantage. So we are just doing what journalist do best. ScottSabin 15:53, 19 January 2007 (CET)

Of course you would claim they are not related. Both nobles who opposed the appointment have now been banned. I see a direct correlation. The existence of a state religion and executions conducted by someone titled, Arch Priestess, leads one to believe that Darkanism is involved.

It appears that tyranny and injustice is the normal mode of operations in Darka, so it doesn't surprise me that Darkan rulers would think that identifying them is "propaganda".

Seriously, appointing a loud-mouthed fool who has never fought a battle against an army, nor even fought outside the borders of your realm, to be Marshal has to raise eyebrows. When he has rude and incivil words for everyone except the rulers, to the extent that two nobles objected to his appointment, pointing out his words and actions. How do you get promoted in Darka? Apparently by slavishly annointing the ruling class with praise rather than by showing merit on the battlefield.

A mercenary realm in which loving words rather than swinging swords wins appointment to Marshal? A warrior realm that declares war and does nothing for two months? A Judge more interested in saving face than preserving justice? Darka is a comic opera in progress. I merely expose the comedy for what it is. --Habap 16:06, 19 January 2007 (CET)

Vatticus has never attacked or insulted a noble unless he was challenged first. Furthermore, he is a madman with very little regard for personal safety, which makes him the ideal man for the job he was appointed to. I suggest you don't open your mouth until you know fully what's going on. It makes you look rather stupid. -Pizarro 17:48, 19 January 2007 (CET)

There are those who would argue with your interpretation of Vatticus' actions. Of course, if you allow that when he imagines he has been insulted to be included (he has "visions" a-plenty), he is freed from "blame". By your own admission he is a madman. If a madman is welcomed at the realm's council table, it must make one wonder about the sanity of the rest of those sitting at that table. --Habap 18:55, 19 January 2007 (CET)

Like I said, Vatticus is the perfect man for the job he was appointed to, as he has not failed his tasks to this very day. Even madmen have their purpose. -Pizarro 19:14, 19 January 2007 (CET)

RedSpanians don't really have a leg to stand on if you try to act high and mighty over state religions and tyranny. At least Darka doesn't send infiltrators to stab those who believe in something other than the majority(Min). RedSpan seems to have no problem doing that, or at least AJ doesn't have a problem doing that. We have a duke in Darka who doesn't want to have anyhing to do with Darkanism and that's not a problem for us. We're certainly not going to send an infiltrator after him. I'm sure if RedSpan had a similar situation of someone mocking Da great Goat, AJ would already be on the job(quoting AJ: I care not for individual rights, especially not of those who trample on Da One's Way). Oh what a great and free nation you live in. Such tolerance for others. - LilWolf 17:35, 19 January 2007 (CET)

Again i point you you to RL issues that most realms are based on. After the CofE was founded in England many Catholics and Protestants were killed becasue of thier religion. Becasue they did not belive in the state religion they lost their lifes as it was considered Blashphmy. Do not forget that we are playing in Medieval times, the people were god fearing and still thought the world was flat. So acusing those who do not belive in your religion blasphemous is totally justified. ScottSabin 17:55, 19 January 2007 (CET)

Additionally, AJ is not our Judge and his religious zealotry is not the policy of the realm. --Habap 18:55, 19 January 2007 (CET)

(What do RL issues have to do with anything? we're talking about BattleMaster here, not catholics and protestants. Stop clouding the issue with irrelevancies.) You accuse Darka of religious zealotry and state that "no disagreement or objection to the tyrannical rule of Darkanism is tolerated". Yet when one of your own nobles disagrees with "Da Way", she is assassinated by one of your own infiltrators. So, two nobles getting banned for openly plotting rebellion and public criticism and insult to the Darkan government is state-sponsored religious zealotry, but one of your own assassins attacking one of your own nobles for commenting against "Da Way" isn't? RedSpaniel nobles have even stepped forward with the belief that the attack was ordered by a government official. The hypocrisy here is as appalling as your "news". --Indirik 21:05, 19 January 2007 (CET)

I use RL issues to show you what Religion in the real medieval world was like...just how battle master is. If someone does not like your religion you purge them out and either get you to join your or you banish/punish them. BM is a lot like RL. ScottSabin 21:26, 19 January 2007 (CET)

You can't really compare medieval Europe and BM when it comes to religion. There's no over powering catholic church that has a grip on the whole island or anything even remotely close to that. Ideologically most of the BM religions are a far cry from what was the norm in medieval Europe. In any case, your arguments don't make the accusations you've made in the paper any less hypocritical. - LilWolf 22:07, 19 January 2007 (CET)

BM is a lot like RL. Perhaps like what real life used to be, in the Middle Ages, but not like how life is now. Many people, including myself, play battlemaster to be able to imaginate how it was when honour still meant something, to be able to fight wars on an honourable way, and to get away from the mess that the world is these days, even if it's only for half an hour or an hour a day. Apart from human beings walking around, RL these days doesn't come very near to what BM has to offer.

There is not a single realm in the game where religion has a stranglehold on the government as it did in medieval times. Even the theocracies aren't at that stage. We may reach that level at some point, but we're not thee yet, and probably not for a long time. --Indirik 22:36, 19 January 2007 (CET)

(OOC: I just think some people don't want to use RL to argue here. Some people are arguing IG and some are arguing OG. Thats silly...lol. I'm gunna not argue IG or out, just pointing to the fact that some people here are roleplaying Nobles not debating philosophy of RL conflict vs IG conflict. Thats why they are showing no interest in RL stuff...I'm sure no one here does not get the simularities between Darka VS RS and real world matters of historic and perhaps modern times...cool? No school?) Vashmere 22:54, 19 January 2007 (CET)

OOC: All im trying to do is show you how religion was in Medieval days. The same time period that we are in playing BM. There might not be an overpowering church, but every realm has its own faith. In Redspan we belive of Da Great Goat. Any other god/religion is false (to use) Therfore we will purge those who practice another faith/non beliver that does not want to convert. look at any period in history and look at how many wars have been fought over religion or how many people have died for their beleifs? Same as in BM (except we dont kill everyone), so the assassination of Min, was done by a religious fanatic (same as an inquisitor, just not realm appointed) ScottSabin 12:06, 20 January 2007 (CET)

Not every realm has its own faith. Eston, for example, is allowing priests of several religions to preach within their borders, provided the ideals of those religions do not clash with the ideals of Eston. Eston itself has two main religions (although one is not yet officially founded). Just because RedSpan and Darka (and others) have "state" religions doesn't mean everyone has. Besides, I think it would be boring if religions were realm-bound. Then instead of fighting wars of conquest we'd be fighting holy wars. -Pizarro 14:25, 20 January 2007 (CET)

Shamus' comments

"I find it sad that when ASI was given the chance to make things right between our two realms by selling us Rogeshore, they would not even consider an offer."

This is Horse-crap man...seriously. Shamus compared the struggle between the Ash Sea Islands and Abington in regards to the Islands to what, exactly? RedSpan wanting more land, and offering to buy it? What a damn insult to my Kingdom.

Look at this for what it is. Abington and ASI fought for ages about the Islands...two nations...one place. ASI /gave/ Sullenport over to RedSpan TWICE...but where did ASI get it? From Tara. Similarily, ASI took over Byblack and Rogeshore from Tara...WHEN did RedSpan take up arms with ASI against Tara? NEVER...we asked, better said, I asked...but all i got was the good old fashioned "I am sorry, but we can't." (However, much later in the war, RS did join the fight--so to speak--and ASI was in RS lands protecting HER regions and helping HER takeover regions...which pisses me off so much more now that I even have to recall these mixed memories of love and hate) Back to the point, ASI got several regions from Tara...and THREE of them are now in what I thought were "friendly" hands. Jagla in Falasan, Byblack and Sullenport in RedSpan. But you want more? Byblack, Rogeshore and Sullenport are regions that ASI got from Tara as mentioned above--that I didn't even know ever belonged to RedSpan because at the time RedSpan and Tara were FRIENDS!!! (possibly allies, but I forget exactly). So you better cut the bull here, Shamus, and be grateful that ASI has given you so much already--without hinting you want more, or that we're greedy. ASI invested heavily in our relations by giving you a HUGE city and Byblack...don't belittle our contribution to RedSpan by saying "It wasn't good enough." Further, when ASI+RS spoke in regards to land exchanges, the agreement was clear as day: We give return Byblack AND Sullenport to you if you stay out of the Abby/ASI war, and the King agreed. If there is any honor in your lands, you will revoke your comment, and issue an apology...unless what the RS King agrees to is not worth mentioning. Doc's Revenge

Wow ... so many misguided thoughts ... I'm not sure where to start. Good to see you haven't lost your debating skills while living in that massive mansion in Ashr'illy, DR! I'll summarize my thoughts on the Byblack/Sullenport/Rogeshore situation as follows:

ASI has certainly been honorable in returning Sullenport to us twice, no question there. But the fact of the matter is we owned those three regions long before Tara had them, meaning even longer before ASI had them. Tara took them from us after their turn in the NA gang-raping of RedSpan during The Great War. ASI basically "stole from the thief", as it were. Those regions have always been a part of RedSpan, and always will be. We truly appreciate the return of Byblack and Sullenport, and thank the nobles of ASI for their return. But our two realms will never become true friends until the last piece of Da Kingdom is returned: Rogeshore. We are not asking you to simply give it away, nor are we making any attempt to take it by force. We have chosen to pursue this in an honorable manner, and have offered to buy the region from ASI for a tidy sum. The choice now falls to you & your fellow nobles. I honestly have no idea why you're so attached to Rogeshore; I would think establishing a long-term friendship with a neighbor and a large chunk of gold would be more than enough reason to part with a vanilla region like this. It feels like you're purposely trying to hold it over our heads to continuously rub salt in old wounds that you don't want to fully heal, though I hope this is far from the truth. Make another right and honorable decision by finishing your good deeds; sell us Rogeshore so Da Kingdom can be whole again, and a lasting peace can come to Southern Atamara. -Shamus oshea 16:10, 20 January 2007 (CET)

Why then, old friend Shamus, did RedSpan not tell ASI of these so-called claims when we first took over these said regions? Instead of joining ASI in fighting Tara, RedSpan sat most of the war out...scared gutless. It wasn't until much later that (keeping in mind that ASI and Abington were allies under the pretense that we'd get our Islands back) Gabriel decided that ASI/Abington needed a new friend...and basically promised Sullenport to RedSpan for support...but it was left to ASI to secure it lol because Abington was pushing West and leaving the North in ASI's trust. Even when RedSpan hopped on board--with nautilus' approval--not ONCE did RedSpan make claim of any ties to Byblack/Rogeshore. None. In fact it wasn't until after we gave you Sullenport, and Abington "pre-emptively invaded" our lands, that you took these 3 regions over, and then said "We had them a long time ago." You see, ASI has always spoken of her interest on her Islands. Why is it that RedSpan did not? When ASI+Abington became allies, we laid it down clearly: We'll be allies, but we want our Islands back. Abington agreed. When RedSpan+Tara came to terms and became good friends...well, RedSpan wasn't stepping up for "her lands." It is a shame that you do not consider our nations to be on anything less than "Friend's" terms. Your people betrayed us, and we forgave you...don't forget that, and don't say that Rogeshore is yours because quite frankly, it is as much "yours" as Jagla is "ours." We gave Jagla up to Tara for peace...which she then gave up to Falasan. Our interests in that region are over. In such a fashion, your King gave up the interests in Rogeshore when he agreed to Byblack+Sullenport not too long ago...and going back even further, your King never even made mention of Byblack, only Sullenport, it was I who agreed to ALSO give Byblack to RedSpan so she could better feed Sullenport. If anything, my reputation of being generous supercedes this accussation of being affiliated to anything short of Greedy.

Rogeshore is not a part of Da Kingdom, however, when the proposal did come up in our Royal Council, I suggested that we trade Rogeshore for Wynford with Abington, and then Abington can sell you Rogeshore. We don't want to be overly dependant on anyone for food...but we don't deserve to be painted as the "bad guys" in this affair. It wasn't ASI that gave up her rights to the said region--three times in a row. There is no amount of gold ASI will take for Rogeshore. However, a comparable food producing region can probably be negotiated if the King sees wisdom in it. Doc's Revenge

One more thing, I forgot to mention, by your definition Shamus, ASI is also entitled to "everything" she once owned. Which is a significant portion of what Abington currently calls "her own." However, in a similar fashion, ASI accepted to give up claims to all those said regions--Riverholm included--for Peace and possibly better relations in the future. If the General populace of RedSpan shares your views, than ya'll need to face reality: Everything doesn't return to how it was a long time ago. You have to accept it, and make the best of it. You have a neighbor in ASI that has invested heavily in better relations with RS...a neighbor that never betrayed you or invaded you...a neighbor that has always tried to be friendly towards you. If anything, your Kingdom should follow by our example, and return the neighborly kindness we have always given you, which it seems, you still take for granted. Look at how much blood ASI+Abington had to spill to reconsile. RedSpan and ASI never did that, are you not grateful? Doc's Revenge

I didn't write my piece to start a negotiation for Rogeshore; that's not my job (nor yours anymore). I merely wanted my thoughts on the subject to be heard. I will still respond to a few of your comments though:

Why then, old friend Shamus, did RedSpan not tell ASI of these so-called claims when we first took over these said regions? Instead of joining ASI in fighting Tara, RedSpan sat most of the war out...scared gutless.

I'm almost positive it was mentioned at this point in time (and many other points since). Why didn't we join in the fight? We had about 5 regions then and were trying to stay alive. RedSpan has never been scared of any fight, and I'm offended you would suggest that.

"We had them a long time ago."

Atamara Map This map is about two weeks too late to demonstrate hard evidence of our ownership of Rogeshore and Byblack, but I can describe the situation like it was yesterday. Lamar was sadly on her last leg, and Tara (backed by the NA hordes) had taken Meldeen, Byblack, and Rogeshore from us, and were knocking on Sullenport's gate. From here, Sullenport would soon fall, and we would subsequently sell Lanston and loan Matakonis to Abington to help with their food problems.

In such a fashion, your King gave up the interests in Rogeshore when he agreed to Byblack+Sullenport not too long ago...and going back even further, your King never even made mention of Byblack, only Sullenport ...

I think you've been overindulging on the vintage wines, friend. As a member of the Inner Circle (King's Council), I don't recall agreeing to forfeit interests to Rogeshore at the time when Byblack and Sullenport were returned.

You have a neighbor in ASI that has invested heavily in better relations with RS ... a neighbor that never betrayed you or invaded you...a neighbor that has always tried to be friendly towards you.

?!? Never invaded us? I beg to differ! I've personally fought off ASI invaders, led by King Lelnor: The Battle of Ambermel I

"Always tried to be friendly?" Shave my beard and call me Taran! You put us in a position where we had to give up Byblack/Sullenport/Rogeshore to avoid extinction when we had 6 realms breathing down our necks! Just because we chose life over death does not in any way mean that we have forfeited those regions in our hearts! They will always be a part of RedSpan.

Look Doc's, mistakes have been made by both realms, and both realms have also made attempts to improve relations. How would you have felt if Abington had made the choice to return "The Islands" to ASI, and decided to withold Worav? That's the situation RedSpan is in now: We greatly appreciate the deed of returning most of our ancient homelands, but your good deed remains incomplete. -Shamus oshea 06:03, 21 January 2007 (CET)