Difference between revisions of "Talk:Family Pages/old2"

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Ok the former family page is a bit of a mess.  Do we want to have rules on the template of this portal page is to look like?  I think Family/Clan name list of characters and a denotation of rulership, deceased, or retired for each character is sufficant.  I think alphabetical as well.
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[[/old]] version of this page
  
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I do like Lorens set up however.--[[User:ESP|Eric S P]]
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== How to divide it up ==
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The question still remains as to how to divide the page up.
  
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== Actual history not a good look. ==
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We need ''some'' kind of structure, because a list of a hundred or more names just isn't something that is useful.
  
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It looks a little lengthy and cluttered with just a short veiw of my family history.  I think we should keep it small.  Family name and a character list... maybe character list and number of rulerships.--[[User:ESP|Eric S P]]
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Let's sum up the structures that were proposed:
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* By number of rulerships
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* By a self-assessment of fame (as shown on the page at the moment)
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* By home island
  
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== Can we do this better? ==
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What other ideas can we come up with? Let's do a little brainstorming. No criticising, just collection of thoughts, ''then'' we have fun shooting them down, ok?
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There's got to be a better way to organize this page than over rulership. (Nevermind that the "Versatile Families" section is a tad on the self-serving side)  Why not organize them by their home island? There could easily be sub-organizations (such as for rulership) and such.  --[[User:Dolohov|Dolohov]] 2 August 2005 20:30 (CEST)
 
  
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== Most everyone on EI? ==
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--[[User:Tom|Tom]] 4 August 2005 11:22 (CEST)
  
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First this was Lorens Idea and it was I that moved everyone (Loren's included) to the Versatile Families.  I had to have my arm twisted (mostly by Tom) to even participate in the Tiki. So self servering... sure if that is the way that you want to look at it.
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:Hmm.  How about:
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:* Straight-up alphabetical order
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:* Guild memberships or other (less formal) associations
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:* Favorite class
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:* Home island ''and'' home realm
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:* Length of time in game
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:* By region (I'm thinking something like the Domesday Book here)
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:* Actual numerical fame value (We should probably have a "famous families" page for that, anyway)
  
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Now Home island is just bad.  Unless I completely misunderstand how it works, you have to have X amount of gold in family money and be lucky and watchful to move the family estate and the majority of people that really get into there realm and game don't tend to take from there realm in hours of need, or are on islands that can't send money home if they are able to without hurting there realm.
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:--[[User:Dolohov|Dolohov]] 4 August 2005 16:36 (CEST)
  
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So even a smaller protion will be able to be on a island that they like and most everyone will be on EI or Atamara.  That would suck.  If you want rearrange the order and put the Ruling and Versatile Families on the bottom.  It is far better than island homes.  I will not likely ever go back to EI and that is not representative of my family.
 
  
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Or Straight alphabetical, I don't care... just Lorens way has a lot more flair, and that is somewhat what the game is about.--[[User:ESP|Eric S P]]
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We definitely need a sort order that doesn't change all the time, which rules out fame, guild or realm memberships.
  
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Alphabetical is something that we don't have to set up - if everyone puts his family page into a "families" category, we get that for free as an added bonus.
  
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:Actually, Atamara is the winner in home world count:
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--[[User:Tom|Tom]] 4 August 2005 20:47 (CEST)
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+-----------+----------+
 
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| HomeWorld | count(*) |
 
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+-----------+----------+
 
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|      NULL |      25 |
 
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|        1 |      294 |
 
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|        2 |      496 |
 
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|        3 |      41 |
 
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|        4 |      16 |
 
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|        5 |      23 |
 
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|        6 |      87 |
 
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|        7 |      36 |
 
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+-----------+----------+
 
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:--[[User:Tom|Tom]] 2 August 2005 23:09 (CEST)
 
  
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:I hadn't realized just how skewed the home islands were, or I wouldn't have suggested it, but the point is that there really ought to be a better way to organize the family listings than by how many rulerships a family has had -- if you're going to do that, you might as well just organize by how old the families are.  Why not go with a more roleplay-style, and create Associations to which people can place themselves (selecting only one, and maybe forming their own):
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:I was actually thinking that it would be a '''feature''' if the order changes -- if it were ordered by fame, for example, it would get people returning to this page every time they gained a fame point.  --[[User:Dolohov|Dolohov]] 4 August 2005 20:49 (CEST)
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:*The Old Oak Association is a list of the strong and hardy families.  The Old Oak relies on a strong foundation of long and honorable service.  It rejects infiltration, and views with distrust bankers and merchants of all types.
 
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:*The Notched Sword Association is a list of the battle-hardened families of the South Islands (although many families are based elsewhere)  They value military discipline over all other virtues, and believe that the only position worth holding is that of General or Marshal.
 
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:... that sort of thing.  The individual associations might sub-divide themselves according to the number of rulerships or generalships held, naturally, but this way we avoid having a handful of old-timers at the top, and then a huge mass of (relative) newcomers at the bottom.  (And I know it's Loren's idea; When I said "Self-serving" I didn't mean "ESP-serving" but the old-timers in general.  I just think that there's a better way to do it, that will result in a more even organization and make the whole thing a little more interesting.) --[[User:Dolohov|Dolohov]] 3 August 2005 01:04 (CEST)
 
  
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::Well the entire idea IMO is about showing your wares and saying 'I am better than you, and I can prove it.'  It is not about an RP society, clan, or guild.  It is along the same lines that everyone and their brother laid claim to being the decendant to Charlemagne or Alexander.. no matter how tenuos the connection was.  It is about pedigree and lineage to greatness.  It is quite literally a ''Mine dick is bigger than yours.'' contest/comparision.  Loren said as much when he created the page.
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== We are restricting the community portal? ==
  
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::And you know what?  That is ok.  We are not getting all politically correct here.  This not a mutual hug society type of game nor is the competion ascept of the game played down.  In fact it is the opposite imo.  I think... nay know that what is looked for is confrontation IC on every level imaginable.  If pointing to the family pages and saying ''"My lineage is greater than your lineage"'' I think that is cool.  This is not a repository of records... we have that already it is called user data.
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What a great community that will be.  Come on Tom this is not what you are about.
  
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::Last on the complaint of the way it is organized and was started and the leveling up that Loren did... there are a lot of people that have not nor could not do was the top 4 players there have done.  It doesn't matter how long someone has been around, there are forces of Nature that can literally do just about anything they want to do in a realm.  Personally I have 3 new rulerships in the last year.  I could have had 5 without much work.  I don't think it is ego, I am that type of person.  I have a knack.  I went into a former enemy realm and without trying or aide from long time supporters, took 25% of the ruler vote with 3 very popular past rulers running.
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And I was serious.  I am not up for a watered down pissing match.  Either get out the tale of the tape (Baseball terminology for ''lets measure'') or water it down completely and just make it a game feature. --[[User:ESP|Eric S P]] 6 August 2005 10:39 (CEST)
  
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::You should see Tom in action when he is in one of his disguised playing accounts.  Tom is the mob-rules ruler.  He gets people caring about small insignificant tripe and than he sets himself as the onl;y person that can make it right.  It is fun, and scary, to watch.  Lorens people have been bitter enemies for an amazingly long time, but I can not deny that he is a master puppeteer.  He finds marks gets them to do his bidding until he is running everything either and minions guarding and protecting him all the time.  TK is one of the most genuine people I have ever met.  He has instant credability because of his mannerism.  He is Kind Sir TK, the peoples champion.  Any of these three are not old Oaks, they are apt to the description.
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== Reasons for neutral tone ==
  
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::I would however agree that every family should have its bragging rights.  How about we think of other things that a family might want to be known for?  But it has to be something that is measurable in game terms and appears on the user history.  Something that in the BM style time line would be boosted about.  Off the top of my head, Heroism.  Dead Heroes and Heroic deeds (just having a Heroe is proof of deeds).  So we could do several tiers of accomplishment.  Rulers are the big ones and they should be first and then subsections of the families Greatness.  Fame could be another, just have to come up with a better family page word to express it.
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There are many reasons for remaining neutral on ''this one page'' and leaving the "pissing contest" to the family pages themselves. Two main reasons:
  
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::Sound a little better to you?--[[User:ESP|Eric S P]] 3 August 2005 08:54 (CEST)
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# There might be hundreds of families on this page. The difference between "1 line, no bragging" and "keep it short, maybe 3-4 lines" is ''10 or more '''pages''' of text''.
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# Once the pissing contest starts, it ''will'' get out of control. Someone will not be happy with bragging about himself and will insert a comment on someone else's family. Then that one will want to get even. Then families will be deleted, and down we go.
  
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:::I'm fine with the idea of having different pages for various "bigger dick competitions" -- but this is the more-or-less official family page, linked to off the front page of the wiki. Having the page set up by one of the Editors (or at least appear to be) makes it even more official.
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This is a final decision. No pissing contest on the intro page.
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:::I'm happy to let it sit like this until something honestly better comes along.  Maybe fame is more appropriate, since it's officially tracked by the game -- and since it changes relatively often, it'll get people more involved in moving their own families around. --[[User:Dolohov|Dolohov]] 3 August 2005 15:21 (CEST)
 
  
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== Family page locations ==
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--[[User:Tom|Tom]] 7 August 2005 11:42 (CEST)
  
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I strongly suggest putting family pages under the user pages as subpages. Look for my family page as an example.
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==Ordering==
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--[[User:Tom|Tom]] 3 August 2005 09:54 (CEST)
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:Ok I understand the reason why and I have 2 things I can say about that:
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:First is that being what you want, alphabetical is the way to go.  It is dull, boring, and people will not give a damn.  Starting with me.  That is why the family page dropped off on the old tiki... Lorens Versatile got some interest and than it waned again.  It is simply not interesting.  Your call.
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:Second is, you are wrong.  How do  know?  Because it has not happened yet.  Tiki Family page has been up forever and no has screwed with it. --[[User:ESP|Eric S P]] 7 August 2005 14:20 (CEST)
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Well, my personal opinion is that the families won't be interesting no matter how you structure them. But I'd suggest making this simply link to a category page, and then everyone who wants to be on that page adds the <nowiki>[[Category:Family]]</nowiki>. Alphabetical order, no effort required. -- [[User:Nicholas|Nicholas]] August 8, 2005 03:48 (CEST)
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:There's something to that Category idea -- and if it proves to be useless or unmanageable, then we can always try something else later. --[[User:Dolohov|John]] 8 August 2005 06:26 (CEST)
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::Alphabetical is total nonsense exactly because the category page would do that automatically. Eric, you're just behaving like a spoiled child again. You don't get your way, so you take your toy and don't play anymore.
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::The current page is an attempt to have a slightly more interesting ordering, but without the pissing contest part. If it doesn't work, we can change it. I suggest we add the category and link to the category page as an alternative.
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--[[User:Tom|Tom]] 8 August 2005 11:37 (CEST)
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:::''Alphabetical is total nonsense''??  Hmmm.  Oh and this is a pissing contest as is.  Just not a good one. --[[User:ESP|Eric S P]] 8 August 2005 13:09 (CEST)
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::::I may not have been as clear as I intended to be. Creating a page with manual alphabetical ordering is nonsense because there already is a page with ''automatic alphabetic ordering'' - [[:Category: Families]]. --[[User:Tom|Tom]] 8 August 2005 13:16 (CEST)
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== Family Pages ==
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Doesn't work as subpages due to the category ordering.
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I've moved the existing 3 pages to a unified naming scheme, which will make the category page work.
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Eric: If you insist on a dick-measuring page, set one up ''as an alternative'' and we'll see which one works better.
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--[[User:Tom|Tom]] 8 August 2005 11:46 (CEST)
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:Listen, I searched and searched.  I don't know how mto set up an alternative page.  No help to creating alternative pages at all.  And you know what, it was just about having fun with the stats.  I don't really care, I was just having a bit of fun and getting creative.
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:If somneone knows how to create an alternative page feel free to take it.  I really have to take a break from it all.  The game in all of its fascets sucks for me right now. --[[User:ESP|Eric S P]] 9 August 2005 11:26 (CEST)

Latest revision as of 21:07, 15 May 2006

/old version of this page

How to divide it up

The question still remains as to how to divide the page up.

We need some kind of structure, because a list of a hundred or more names just isn't something that is useful.

Let's sum up the structures that were proposed:

  • By number of rulerships
  • By a self-assessment of fame (as shown on the page at the moment)
  • By home island

What other ideas can we come up with? Let's do a little brainstorming. No criticising, just collection of thoughts, then we have fun shooting them down, ok?

--Tom 4 August 2005 11:22 (CEST)

Hmm. How about:
  • Straight-up alphabetical order
  • Guild memberships or other (less formal) associations
  • Favorite class
  • Home island and home realm
  • Length of time in game
  • By region (I'm thinking something like the Domesday Book here)
  • Actual numerical fame value (We should probably have a "famous families" page for that, anyway)
--Dolohov 4 August 2005 16:36 (CEST)


We definitely need a sort order that doesn't change all the time, which rules out fame, guild or realm memberships.

Alphabetical is something that we don't have to set up - if everyone puts his family page into a "families" category, we get that for free as an added bonus.

--Tom 4 August 2005 20:47 (CEST)

I was actually thinking that it would be a feature if the order changes -- if it were ordered by fame, for example, it would get people returning to this page every time they gained a fame point. --Dolohov 4 August 2005 20:49 (CEST)

We are restricting the community portal?

What a great community that will be. Come on Tom this is not what you are about.

And I was serious. I am not up for a watered down pissing match. Either get out the tale of the tape (Baseball terminology for lets measure) or water it down completely and just make it a game feature. --Eric S P 6 August 2005 10:39 (CEST)

Reasons for neutral tone

There are many reasons for remaining neutral on this one page and leaving the "pissing contest" to the family pages themselves. Two main reasons:

  1. There might be hundreds of families on this page. The difference between "1 line, no bragging" and "keep it short, maybe 3-4 lines" is 10 or more pages of text.
  2. Once the pissing contest starts, it will get out of control. Someone will not be happy with bragging about himself and will insert a comment on someone else's family. Then that one will want to get even. Then families will be deleted, and down we go.

This is a final decision. No pissing contest on the intro page.

--Tom 7 August 2005 11:42 (CEST)

Ordering

Ok I understand the reason why and I have 2 things I can say about that:
First is that being what you want, alphabetical is the way to go. It is dull, boring, and people will not give a damn. Starting with me. That is why the family page dropped off on the old tiki... Lorens Versatile got some interest and than it waned again. It is simply not interesting. Your call.
Second is, you are wrong. How do know? Because it has not happened yet. Tiki Family page has been up forever and no has screwed with it. --Eric S P 7 August 2005 14:20 (CEST)

Well, my personal opinion is that the families won't be interesting no matter how you structure them. But I'd suggest making this simply link to a category page, and then everyone who wants to be on that page adds the [[Category:Family]]. Alphabetical order, no effort required. -- Nicholas August 8, 2005 03:48 (CEST)

There's something to that Category idea -- and if it proves to be useless or unmanageable, then we can always try something else later. --John 8 August 2005 06:26 (CEST)
Alphabetical is total nonsense exactly because the category page would do that automatically. Eric, you're just behaving like a spoiled child again. You don't get your way, so you take your toy and don't play anymore.
The current page is an attempt to have a slightly more interesting ordering, but without the pissing contest part. If it doesn't work, we can change it. I suggest we add the category and link to the category page as an alternative.

--Tom 8 August 2005 11:37 (CEST)

Alphabetical is total nonsense?? Hmmm. Oh and this is a pissing contest as is. Just not a good one. --Eric S P 8 August 2005 13:09 (CEST)
I may not have been as clear as I intended to be. Creating a page with manual alphabetical ordering is nonsense because there already is a page with automatic alphabetic ordering - Category: Families. --Tom 8 August 2005 13:16 (CEST)

Family Pages

Doesn't work as subpages due to the category ordering. I've moved the existing 3 pages to a unified naming scheme, which will make the category page work. Eric: If you insist on a dick-measuring page, set one up as an alternative and we'll see which one works better. --Tom 8 August 2005 11:46 (CEST)

Listen, I searched and searched. I don't know how mto set up an alternative page. No help to creating alternative pages at all. And you know what, it was just about having fun with the stats. I don't really care, I was just having a bit of fun and getting creative.
If somneone knows how to create an alternative page feel free to take it. I really have to take a break from it all. The game in all of its fascets sucks for me right now. --Eric S P 9 August 2005 11:26 (CEST)
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