Talk:Old Taxes 2/Experimental

Graphics

Is the graphic explaining taxes in a duchy correct? There's no mention of how duchy knights are handled. Unlike the other graphic, the duchy one was not created by Tom, so I'm wondering where that information came from.

As pictured, duchy knights very clearly receive their income from duchy shares and only duchy shares. They get nothing whatsoever from the regional taxes, and get paid before maintenance and militia costs are paid. This seems very unlikely. Westgate 21:52, 15 August 2007 (CEST)

Yes, that change is wrong. The duchy knights are already in the picture - bottom left! Does anyone have a copy of the original image? If so, please re-upload it. --Tom 21:55, 15 August 2007 (CEST)

The knights in the lower left are for knights of the region, not of the duchy. You're seeming to imply that region knights and duchy knights get their money from the same pool of gold. If they both get a percentage of the same pool of gold, then what's the point of having both duchy knights and region knights? --Indirik 22:21, 15 August 2007 (CEST)

They don't though in the game. My priest is a duchy knight and definitely works off a different pool of money.. at least according to the oaths page (had a region knight in the same region). Then again, 1st tax day hasn't arrived yet. --Fodder 02:32, 16 August 2007 (CEST)

True. My bad, the system was implemented slightly differently than I had thought up. Duchies are, in fact, treated seperately from regions, in part. A bit tricky to put into a diagram. I'll think of something. --Tom 12:41, 16 August 2007 (CEST)

It was me that updated that graphic, and I did so with information you, Tom, provided in a bug report I posted on the subject. I can't provide the quote as the report has been closed and deleted, but you said duchy knights get their gold *only* from the duchy shares that are sent from the regions to the duchy, and realm gold as normal. This wasn't shown on the diagram, and because of it lots of duchy knights were getting almost no gold, as few regions send money to their duchies (in the realms I play in, anyway). If you want to re-upload the old diagram, it's still there. I uploaded a new, altered one; I didn't overwrite the old one. Eoghan 06:27, 18 August 2007 (CEST)

Come to think of it, neither diagrams are right, as I don't think any of the duchy share goes directly to city (regional) knights either. Looks like the duchy share is added up, bits of it to duchy knights, bits to realm, I'm guessing the rest go to the duke. --Fodder 09:35, 18 August 2007 (CEST)

The correct way it should work is that duchies are not regions, but seperate ("virtual") entities. As such, a duchy region has two tax collections - the region and the duchy part. So it doesn't really fit into the diagram. The info I gave was correct, but the implication that the duchy shares flow into the region tax collection, isn't. However, since the system is fresh and during development various ways were tried, I can't be 100% certain how exactly it's working right now without looking into the code. --Tom 13:43, 18 August 2007 (CEST)

Older Discussion

Some questions:

-Would the normal troop leaders only get taxes through their region lord, or would they receive gold from the taxes sent ot the realm as well?
-If a region has too many knights, would it be possible for some of them to swear an oath to another lord to 'balance' things out?
-On FEI, I saw a new Oaths page, will this be implied along with the new tax system?

-Marouane 14:54, 21 August 2006 (CEST)

Eh, we have an 80 gold region with 8 knights. Problem. Is it possible that the local lord could request gold aid from the duchy to pay his knights? Otherwise I think the auto-swearing allengiance shuould go and all knights (maybe only those that were auto sworn, although separating that would be difficult/near impossible I would think) should have a chance to redeclare their allegiance to a liege of their choice. --The1exile 15:47, 21 August 2006 (CEST)

Unless i'm totally wrong, there's already an option to " end " an oath. It's in the page "knight" then "overview oath". But, both side have to agree. --Muniam 18:07, 21 August 2006 (CEST)

For lords? Wouldn't know, I've never been one (only general and marshal), but I'm certain that that's only on testing then, not stable. --The1exile

It is, I'm a lord on Atamara and I have no such options. From what I heard its being tested on FEI (and maybe Beluaterra as well) -Marouane 23:22, 21 August 2006 (CEST)

Experimental Tax System And Oath System

Rumor has it that the new tax system is going to be activated soon, so I'd like to give everyone a brief report on my short research into this new system, on how to properly solve the problem that common knights seem to be only receiving 10 gold per week.

The current realm settings are set to:
* Soldier, weight 2
* Cavalier, weight 2
* Hero, weight 2
* Bureaucrat, weight 1
* Infiltrator, weight 1
* Ruler, weight 1
* General, weight 5
* Judge, weight 5
* Banker, weight 1

First, in the old system, distribution points are linked with the characters. For instance my character Gias Kay is a soldier and the General, so he is qualified for 1 basic point + 2 soldier points + 5 General points = 8 total points. We have 60 characters in this realm, combining their individual points you get a sum of 162 points, so Gias Kay will receive 8/162 = 4.9% of the gold from the realm tax pool per week, and plus 30% of regional taxes residue (70% send to the realm tax pool under the tax rate the Banker set).

Under the new system however, distribution points are no longer linked with the characters directly, they instead link with each category they represent. There are in total 1 (basic point) + 2 + 2 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 5 + 5 +1 = 21 distribution points set, and 2/21 = 9.5% of the gold from the realm tax pool are equally distributed among all soldiers, 1/21 = 4.7% to all infiltrators, 5/21 = 23.8% to all General (and there is only one of course), etc.

Total realm tax collection: 4153 gold

Tax Distribution
Everyone (51)    4.7 %    195 gold
Ruler    4.7 %    195 gold
General    23.8 %    988 gold
Judge    23.8 %    988 gold
Banker    4.7 %    195 gold
Bureaucrats (7)    4.7 %    195 gold
Cavaliers (5)    9.5 %    394 gold
Heros (10)    9.5 %    394 gold
Infiltrators (4)    4.7 %    195 gold
Soldiers (25)    9.5 %    394 gold

So in the new system, Gias Kay will get 4.7%/51 (Everyone; Priests will not get even this basic point I guess) + 9.5%/25 (Soldiers) + 23.8%/1 (General) = 24.3% of the gold from the realm tax pool per week. This week there is 4153 gold in the realm tax pool, so Gias Kay got 4153 * 24.3% = 1008 gold from the realm tax pool, and plus 30% of regional taxes residue (70% send to the realm tax pool under the regional tax rate Gias Kay set).

Letter from Xaia   (3 days, 4 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (59 recipients)
You receive 4 gold as a member of your realm.
You receive 78 gold as a Cavalier.
Your total tax income is 82 gold

I am still very unipmressed.

Xaia (Dame of Haji)

In this case, Xaia got 4.7%/51 (Everyone) + 9.5%/5 (Cavaliers) = 1.9% of the gold from the realm tax pool per week, which made it 4153 * 1.9% = 82 gold.

Letter from Jasper   (3 days, 4 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (59 recipients)
You receive 4 gold as a member of your realm.
You receive 16 gold as a Soldier.
Your total tax income is 20 gold

Still hasn't been higher than 21 >_

Jasper (Knight of Ossmat)

In this case, Jasper got 4.7%/51 (Everyone) + 9.5%/25 (Soldiers) = 0.1% of the gold from the realm tax pool per week, which made it 4153 * 0.1% = 20 gold (should be 4 gold only but the game code rounds up the results in each category first before summing them up, hence the smaller the number the huger the inflation will be in the final result).

So? What the hell this new system is all up to? Is this a sucking joke? If this is really nothing more than a stupid idea, Tom would not put so much time coding such crap. The purpose of this new system is to enhance the feudal system. Common Knights are to receive the major portion of their incomes from their Lieges. Regional Lords are to distribute the major portion of the taxes collected in your region to your loyal Knights, not directly to the realm. This is what the Oath system is for.

For instance, Jasper is a Knight of Ossmat, and there should be an oath between Lorgan and Jasper. If the two agreed an oath which stated Lorgan offers 10% of the taxes collected in his region to Jasper per week, in exchange of Jasper's loyal service, Jasper would have an additional of 519 * 10% = 52 gold aside from the 20 gold he received from the realm tax pool, which made up for 72 gold.

In case some of the Dukes are overcrowded with knights, Regional Lords can either choose to send a portion of the taxes collected in their regions to their Dukes, or offer to bring a few knights under their regions instead of under the Dukes' names. I believe there were also discussions on the Discussion List about how to deal with the dishonourable knights who chase after wealthy regions instead of the lieges, but I am not sure of the conclusion.

In any case, I think it is time for Lords and Dukes to start arranging for Oaths between you and your knights, better than doing it after the new system is switched on.

---

Was originally a message I posted in my realm. -- Gsklee 12:47, 20 October 2006 (CEST)