LoF's Council

I doubt you will eventually read all of this, but please do so, especially when you are a TL from LoF. These messages were also spread in other places on the island, to be short: everybody knows.

I plainly want to point out that I find this discussion disgustable, and unhuman-like, try to get some scence into it...

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Letter from Sparky (just in) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) About the proposal being made:

Letter from Lycastus (7 hours, 12 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (10 recipients) Now I respectfully give you my first draft... Gregor has given me authority to negotiate with you...

1-Fontan and LoF will be allied to each other.

2-LoF will declare war on Perdan at once and fight in coordination with Fontan.

3-LoF will eventually give Fontan: Fontan City, Tokat, Viseu(maybe this can stay), Negev and An-najaf.

4-Fontan will Provide LoF these following regions from Perdan: Perdan City, Perdan Mines, Bescanon, Brive, Meuse (Also you should get Nascot.) This one must be bendable according to our course of conquests.

5-The land exchanging process will be discussed under this:

a) All conquests will be TO'ed by LoF, or if emergancy occurs and Fontan TOes it will be handed over to LoF ASAP.

b)Our first priority is to defeat and maime Perdan land exchange can be processed afterwards. Our point is to maintain a strong LoF during the war. Not to force LoF to give up regions in the middle of the war.

first conquest will be Bescanon... But after Perdan city's fall... At least Negev, An Najaf and Fontan city must have been delivered back... Ofcourse the exchanging process will depend on our strategy so Fontan will not force LoF untill Perdan City falls and under full control of LoF.

After that the returning order will be like this:

Negev

An-Najaf

Fontan City

Tokat

Viseu(after our armies have spilled blood together this may be a token of Fontan's gratitude.)

7) LoF will be free to spread religion in Fontan.

8)In future conflicts LoF and Fontan will first look for the ways to help each other...

9)with this agreement LoF promises Fontan that she will fight untill Perdan is defeated. And Fontan Promises LoF a land exchange without conflict.

This is draft to express my wiev to you personally I am aware that it is not in a official and modular language... What do you say?

Teshup Supreme Judge of Fontan [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [give medal: Trust Fun]

An offer from Fontan what do you all think? Dont forget previous treaties will mean we may need a new city anyway

Sir Lycastus Pontifex of Light of Fountain, Duke of Fontan

Sparky Paladin Primus of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Sparky (5 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) And my counter proposal to this:

Letter from Sparky Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (10 recipients) I don't know if it will make us so m uch stronger, and ultimatly Tokat belongs to Caligus. I don't think it's a good offer, if we are gonna spill out blood then we should at least go up to Patrora, we shouldn't negotiate too lightly..

Maybe hand over these regions and get ourself a composition like this:

-Perdan (high income) -Perdan Mines (high income) -Bescanon (high income) -Nascot -Akesh Temple (our temple) -Meuse -Mulhouse -Patrora (high income) -Dimwood

And then the following regions can go to Fontan

-Negev (high income) -Fontan city (high income) -An Najaf -Tokat (high income) -Viseu (high income)

This sounds like something we can benefit of

Sparky Paladin Primus of Light of Fountain

Sparky Paladin Primus of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Sparky (59 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) I disagree, helping Caligus is signing a dead contract, we'd be better off helping Yssaria..

Look at Caligus, their capital who has already been under siege, with 2 regions behind it, and 1 cut off region Sordidus, it's nothing anymore

Sparky Paladin Primus of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Sparky (54 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) No, what I fear is that we put in lots and lots of effort, even if we succeed we have so little to gain, whilst our income would shoot up with the treatment that has been offered.

On top of that it bring us geographically closer to the other Theocracy AND we would come in reach of Chaos Temple.. It is a good chance.

We are at peace with Sirion and I have good contacts there, I have no reason to fear them at this time.

Third of all, our only agreement is in the end to give Fontan back this regions, and this treatment can solve our promise to do that, we have much to gain and little to lose, because our regions aren't at risk in a war with Perdan.

Sparky Paladin Primus of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Jerix (39 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) The only issue I see with this proposal after looking at the map is that it requires us to gain Nascot or Scio in order to be able to TO any of Perdans regions, how exactly will we go about getting possession of either of those regions? Declare war on Caligus as well?

Jerix Marquis of Negev, Marshal of the army of Fontan [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

The council apparently thinks otherwise about the issue... I can't compete with sparky, he's right... Perhaps if I find something useful...

Letter from Sparky (39 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) Take in mind that we wouldn't be warring with Caligus, but with Perdan, how can you be so blind to see that we don't have a lot to gain from this? The Temples must fall under our guidance. May I remind you that the entire continent was filled in black or void for 3 days when the Chaos Temple rose up? This is something you can not think lightly of. I'm not in the religion myself, so for more details I would like to hear the opinion of our experts on this area. But I can tell you that my feeling says that it isn't anything good.

Militarily speaking we have Perdan on the edge of the ravine and we have the force to push them over the edge. If you don't believe me take a look at the Statistics with Military Power.

Compare Sirion, Perdan, Fontan and LoF

Plus I know the Fontan current General, he is incompetent. Therefor I would also like this mission to fall under my command. Fontan knows me well enough to rely this task on me and I would be happy to fulfill it.

Sparky Paladin Primus of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Roleplay from Nnix (8 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) I say yes to the proposal.

All my reasons for agreeing have been mentioned already so i won't reiterate any.

Nnix (Knight of Fontan) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Sparky (6 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) Where do you think that Perdan has the upper hand? Fontan just has a dumb General that suicides their army every now and then. Perdan can only fight a defensive war now and with the proper.. push.. they will fall off the ravine. I believe, seeing my past, I have a lot more insight in these matters than you do.

Also I'm not insisting on accepting the offer because it's your relative that is there, I simply look at the best option for our realm. Instead of telling how great Perdan is try actually reading the agreement, get your relative to this realm and crush Perdan together, it lies within our easier pack of possibilities.

Sparky Paladin Primus of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Saruyama (just in) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) It's been a long time since I spoke in your honoured presence, but let me do so again now. I believe that to fight Perdan is a good way out of the territorial stagnation we are locked in now. Indeed, I had proposed the very thing 1-2 months ago (real time). (OOC: how is time measured in game? 1 normal day is what in game?)

However, we should make certain that we will get something in return. The deal I heard about here sounds very good and we should take it. I only have one question. Fontan has been talking for a long time about creating a new realm called Coimbra in Perdan's land. Are we talking about the same land they are promesing us?

Saruyama (Knight of Fontan) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Sparky (just in) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) New Coimbra is the reason why I would take Partora in the negotiations, to ensure that they aren't creating New Coibmra there. The plan was initially to recreate Coimbra in Westmoor, so that may be that way as well, but in case they are planning to create it further to the west it would be a good thing to secure Partora for ourselves.

Like ]]Anonymous1[[ says is that we don't have a connection region, and that is more worth discussing than the fact if we can or not win this war, because that isn't a major point.

Sparky Paladin Primus of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from zedd (1 hour, 47 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) By the way, what is that nonsense about not going true Caligus?

Sir zedd (Noble) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Tempest (just in) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) If we are going to make a counter proposal then in we also need to ask for a weekly trade route from Fontan otherwise we will starve very quickly. The only other realm on this continent that will even think of selling food is Ubent but I don't fully trust Samson so I'd rather not depend on them.

Sir Tempest Fiduciary of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

You gotta push hard on this one, Tempest is the Fiduciary, he knows everything about the food, and he knows of what an important value Aureus would be as food producer for Light of Fountain. But then again Nascot would be that as well... Let us not bring them to see Nascot as a possible food producer...

Letter from Lycastus (41 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) If we have meuse whats to stop us taking the rich rural region joining it, and as I said before I would think we would be given troyes with some negotiation Id prefer to secure our own food rather than rely on others

Sir Lycastus Pontifex of Light of Fountain, Duke of Fontan [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Lestat (28 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) I think it would be better to wait and transfer regions until the war is ended, or at least our part in it. Yes, we would be stronger than Fontan if that were the case, which is more than likely why the want it the way they do, but surely we can trust each other not to betray an agreement. As for attacking Caligus....If we ally ourselves with an enemy of Caligus, could we ask them for the regions in return for military aid?

Lestat (Knight of Tokat) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Lycastus (19 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) Well they say under our full control, which to me means no claims. Akesh will have to be out capital for the duration of the war though so we will need a Beurocrat in Fontan city at all times if we do this

Sir Lycastus Pontifex of Light of Fountain, Duke of Fontan [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Lestat (13 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) And Troyes; I don't think Fontan would give us a region next to a city of theirs.

If all of this ends up like this, what city was going to be the permanent capital? Partora would probably be the best, since it's near the center of where LoF would be after the war.

Lestat (Knight of Tokat) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Kara (19 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) Hi,

I don't think Fontan's proposal is bad. However, Sparky's counter proposal is better. I'd say go for the counter proposal, but I won't make to much fuss if we don't get what we want. We've split from Fontan, and they don't forget easily. we do not want them to crash us down, and I believe if we keep negotiating because we do not want to return our cities, they will take them back the hard way. I do prefer to at least stay neutral to Fontan.

Kara (Noble) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Siobhan (10 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) I would rather see this realm as a haven of neutrality, which would be more in line with what we stand for.

If it comes down to choosing the lesser of two evils I would certainly prefer Sparky's counterproposal. And why just be allies? Why don't we move up the scale to a federation with Fontan if we are to spill our men's blood?

I also believe our supply-line to our capital would be uncomfortably long during such a war.

Siobhan (Knight of Fontan) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Siobhan (just in) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) Apparantly, it would take 68 hours, or 16 turns, to get from Nascot to recruit at Fontan City and return to the front. This is just an example.

It's allright, most of us can afford to field large units, but some time or another that gold is going to be spent or the unit is

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Letter from Hannibal (just in) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) I think we will simply deliver crippling blows to their cities. It would be difficult for Perdan to stop us if we can get 20k from fontan and sirion. I imagine we can send around 15K mobile, maybe more. I guess it all depends on how much CS we can gather in one army.

Hannibal Haruspex Maximus of Light of Fountain, Duke of Akesh Temple [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Obery (12 hours, 16 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients)

I think if we can take and hold one region, whether or not it is actually under our flag, we will be good. From there those who need it can go back to refit, and others can just rest up, and heal their wounded.

I also agree with the idea of two large forces. One working with Fontan and Sirion to do large battles, and another faster force to run around and hassle any random traveling Perdanites, or larger forces even.

Obery (Knight of Akesh Temple) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Lycastus (11 hours, 40 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) another member

Sir Lycastus Pontifex of Light of Fountain, Duke of Fontan [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Eric (9 hours, 50 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) I am still sticking to my original proposal that is simmilar to the counter proposal except that I beleive we should get the food heavy rural instead of patora. Becuase having more food is a much better idea. We can always negoteatie for patora later on. But also remember that the goal is also to join into a federation with Fontan and Yssaria. Or an alliance at least. Thjis would encourage Fontan to side with us. And then we could also aid Yssaria.

Eric (Knight of Fontan) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Kagurati (8 hours, 23 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) This is why I hate just getting to join things, I'm oblivious as to what everyone's talking about.

Anyone willing to fill me in a little bit?

Kagurati (Knight of Fontan) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Kagurati (4 hours, 47 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) You are all so hungry for war it's ridiculous. What if Partora would willing leave Perdan if we could convince them to move their capital. Do you seriously expect Perdan to surrender it's namesake? It's the second most populated city on the continent, and your fools if you think they will. You will be fighting to the very end of Perdan to get that city.

Of course, I suppose you're all to scared of the infamous Sirion to even consider attacking someone else. "Why not elimate Perdan, they are the weakest" is probably what you think. But have you ever given any thought as to what will happen when Perdan falls, and when Yssaria finally dominates Caligus? What then? Who do we turn to fight after that? Kalmar Islands? They can barely hold off against Old Rancagua.

What you all don't seem to realize is that Perdan is the last realm on this continent that has the power to actually hold off, and as long as they remain there, we don't even have to worry about the question, "Who's next?" or "When will war finally take us?".

Of course, you won't attack Fontan, even though you DID secede from them. And the reasoning there I believe, is because you're scared of Sirion destroying your realm here.

It's sad, for a realm based on a religion about purging the darkness, you seem have a hard time fnding it.

Kagurati (Knight of Fontan) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Sparky (3 hours, 43 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) Corruption..

Letter from Kagurati (3 days, 15 hours ago) Message sent to everyone in your realm (37 recipients) Caligan noblity is strained enough as it is. It's stupid to torture them... They really don't know that much unless they are high council.

Regardless, Yssaria should pay for the stupidity of their crimes if you ask me. But I'm known to lean towards the direction that aids Perdan in some way or another.

Kagurati (Knight of Fontan)

Letter from Kagurati (3 days, 15 hours ago) Message sent to everyone in your realm (37 recipients) Or better yet, can we use their actions as a Casus Belli (Right of War)?

Kagurati (Knight of Fontan)

And then

Letter from Kagurati (1 hour ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) You are all so hungry for war it's ridiculous.

I almost fell off my chair laughing when I read this, someone tie me up before I announce this realm wide, or continent wide, lol!!!

Sparky Paladin Primus of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Sparky (3 hours, 39 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) Your love for Perdan, as you call it yourself, is obviously a restraint for the good of our own realm. You need your priorities here, or else I will show you the shortest route to the harbour in Fontan.

Sparky Paladin Primus of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Tempest (3 hours, 35 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) I have to agree with Sparky. Kagurati you are completely blinded by your family in Perdan.

Sir Tempest Fiduciary of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Sparky (3 hours, 31 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) I'm not trying to take anyone down btw, only if we keep individuals like this then our noses will never point in the same direction, in the end we will have to do something about spreading our religion to more places in the island and we can not keep our discussions going until the end of times.

Also, Fontan is the very first realm to send us a concrete proposal, a proposal which can gain both parties a lot of benefits with the right adjustments, so think from that point of view and not a point of view where we put certain realms above others.

Sparky Paladin Primus of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Kagurati (2 hours, 20 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) I said you all were hungry for war. I never said I wasn't.

I came here to actually escape war a bit. This realm is a nice change from other realms. It's a realm that seemed to be working at attaining things peacefully, and had a goal in mind when it was created.

Now it just seems that the goal has become fuzzy, and unguided. A realm based around a religion of light, that is duty bound to purge the darkness from the lands... Yet you can't seem to find the darkness.

I grew up in Itorunt, I served Perdan for sometime, and then I came here. Perhaps I don't want to fight the realm that my family currently resides in. Would you like to? Would anyone willingly sack the region that their family lived in?

What about Caligus? Can't we make a deal with them and Yssaria to get Domus? Would that not be an applicable location for our capital?

And Sparky, do all the noses always point in the same direction? If one points a different direction, then you have the advantage of a different view, and that can be a good thing, contrary to what you seem to beleive.

Kagurati (Knight of Fontan) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Sparky (1 hour, 9 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) What about Caligus? Can't we make a deal with them and Yssaria to get Domus? Would that not be an applicable location for our capital?

This would be a good option, if not Yssaria would destroy anything on their way that holds on to Domus. Think up something concrete to convince them if you give this as suggestion.

And Sparky, do all the noses always point in the same direction? If one points a different direction, then you have the advantage of a different view, and that can be a good thing, contrary to what you seem to beleive.

Of course some noses can point in another direction, yet, also they will have to accept the realms desicion, so don't hold on to it with your life, neither you should try to delay the realm in it's desicion, from what I've heard almost everyone thinks it is a good deal, so that would leave you, Kagurati, as only opposer, and we can't in that case satisfy everyone.

Tell me, would you take up the arms against Perdan if that would be decided, even though it is not your wish?

Sparky Paladin Primus of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Siobhan (57 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) Kagurati does not stand alone on this point. I'm with him most of the way. I guess it's ok if our goal is to expand the religion, but do you want to do this by the sword? Next step would be building dungeons to 'purge' non-believers and have them enbrace the true faight, or die? If that's the excuse for attacking Perdan, it's ridiculous.

We have to try to make LoF survive. We have to make deals and we have to talk to others. In the founding principles I saw a neutral, peaceloving realm that mediates between warring parties, rather than joining them. I'd hate to be wrong there...

Siobhan (Knight of Fontan) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Tempest (49 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) We knew this would not be our permanent home when the first people here signed that treaty. We cannot keep avoiding that treaty and this is the best offer we have been given. We have to think of our survival first, we cannot spread the light if we are dead.

Sir Tempest Fiduciary of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Sparky (14 hours, 10 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) I bet Lycastus got spammed too, but happy reading

Request from son of patrick (just in) Message sent to: Sparky Sparky, For long LoF has stayed at peace with everyone. And if it wishes to stay that way.. that's fine. But I request your help, I've always hoped working along with you. And in my eyes, it is simple: Or you choose Yssaria's side and attack us. Or you choose our side and attack yssaria.

Now think about it. The first option, what will it bring you? You'll loose all honour, there's nothing difficult in finishing of a 4regions tall realm with 4 realms. That is simply the option of the weakling, and that will be how the whole world will call you even after you are no more.. Gains for LoF: maybe.. 2 regions! (sordidus and tokat, while tokat is already yours) Yssaria has more then twice our income and still they loose more battles then they win. Now they have a little advantage (if you check the military power) the only reason for that is because in our last looting mission ibladesh and Itorunt stopped us, while yssaria didn't lost a single men!

Now if you choose option 2. There is a future for Caligus, and a very bringt one. Sinds now our forces are almost equal to Yssaria, it will be prety easy with some help to take the advantage.. My final goal would be: making caligus in Isadril, that way you can expand to the west, (I prefer seeing domus in the hands of LoF then in the hands of yssaria).

Again, please think about what future the EC would have if Caligus died. Perdan would dissapear to, Then what will happen? Peace during months? NO! only untill Eleran (yssaria) decides they want to expand more. and believe me that will happen! We would have peace since quite some time if it wasn't for yssaria's greedy king! Cheerz my old friend, I hope we can work togheter in the future. (don't forget, LoF got Tokat and Akesh temple from Caligus!)

son of patrick High Marshal of Caligus

Sparky Paladin Primus of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Kagurati (12 hours, 35 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) You know what I find ironic? The fact that you're holding on to a treaty from a realm that had to threaten you as well as get it's ally to threaten you, in order to ensure you stayed in line. I'd be amazed if many people don't consider LoF a puppet realm of Fontan.

You know what though, here we are, in close range of Fontan's two most gold critical regions! We can cripple them with one swift move, and yet for some reason, you don't see that Perdan has been fighting Fontan, Sirion, AND Ibladesh all at the same time, and they aren't losing any time soon.

Here we are, planning to attack Perdan, because they are the weakest enemy that you "want" to attack. You wouldn't even care if Fontan hadn't been pushing you. Perdan wouldn't even be worth attacking. It's a distance away from us, and requires us to pass through a realm that we are neither allied or federated with.

Fontan on the other hand, we can cripple very quickly. And I'm rather sure I could even tell you when Fontan has suffered a significant loss if I asked the Queen of perdan. Or better yet, Sparky could ask ][osferatu. As soon as Fontan and Sirion suffer a significant loss, we have over a week to move in and cripple Fontan.

Of course, I suppose you don't care about that action because it would involve attacking the realm that LoF forcefully SECEDED from in the first place...

And no, if LoF declared war on Perdan, I would not aid it. I am not in to attacking those that we don't have a reason to attack.

And I will actually go talk to Vlad, and whoever the ruler of Yssaria is, and ask them what it would take and whether they'd be willing, and all that stuff.

Kagurati (Knight of Fontan) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Sparky (12 hours, 19 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) Kagurati,

I have arranged an escort for you to Fontan's harbour. I will ask you kindly this time to leave this realm and don't think about coming back.

Sparky Paladin Primus of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Kagurati (12 hours, 8 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) Sparky, I don't know the official outlines of our government in LoF and I don't intend this to be rude, but you do know that Hannibal is the Judge right?

Kagurati (Knight of Fontan) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Lycastus (12 hours ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients)

You know what I find ironic? The fact that you're holding on to a treaty from a realm that had to threaten you as well as get it's ally to threaten you, in order to ensure you stayed in line. I'd be amazed if many people don't consider LoF a puppet realm of Fontan.

Threatened us? Who did?

Sir Lycastus Pontifex of Light of Fountain, Duke of Fontan [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Kagurati (11 hours, 59 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) Sirion. They threatened that if you didn't accept the treaty they'd attack LoF. I remember that from my first duration here.

Kagurati (Knight of Fontan) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Obery (11 hours, 58 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) Kagurati's actions and words do not seem that out of line. Misguided? Perhaps. Incorrect even. But not enoguh to warrant banning from the realm.

Obery (Knight of Akesh Temple) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Eric (11 hours, 49 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) Kagurati I am sideing with Sparky on this one. I will help escort you to the harbor. Beluaterra is a nive place I here. We would only attack Perdan because we have a ton to gain and we must fulfill our promise to Fontan. Oh and by the way insisting that we can cripple Fontan would really make us lose our honor. WE are not a puppet realm of Fontan but we do have to fulfill our promise to retain any honor at all. Oh and I say we should never side with Caligus because then we will go down with a sinking ship.

Eric (Knight of Fontan) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Eric

[reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [give medal: Trust Roleplaying]

Letter from Eric (11 hours, 49 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) True Obery but I am not suggesting banning I am just saying it as a suggstion. Because he is not listening logically to what we are saying and he does reflect ont his realm so that could be a risk.

Eric (Knight of Fontan) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Sparky (11 hours, 48 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) This is more than enough to warrant a ban. He has openly admitted not to have heart for our realm. It is obvious that he is only here to keep propagandising the Southern Alliance, we need to get off this view. We have our oldest agreement still to fulfill, returning Fontans lands, and have we so far got a better, faster, easier way to fulfill this?

I can not rely this man in any battle to cover my back, and that lack of trust is enough of a basis not to have someone in the realm, because even though some people will disagree with whatever we decide, we must all fight for our realm, this man has admitted not to do that and therefor does not belong here (although I can't imagine this spirit will be accepted anywhere).

Sparky Paladin Primus of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Richard (8 hours, 46 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in your realm (41 recipients) Congrats on the win Tempest and good luck in the next round.

Richard (Knight of Fontan) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Tempest (6 hours, 23 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) Kagurati please, do not pretend to understand what you do not.

You used to be one of the people I trusted but with one sentence you have shown me that that trust was misplaced. I will NOT fight beside someone who I fear will stab me in the back. You have shown eveyone here in the Outer Council that you care more about Perdan than you do LoF. No matter what we decide as a realm to do there are always a few that will not be overly happy about it but they will go along with it anyway because they belong to this realm, yet you have said that you will disobey any orders that says to attack Perdan simply because you do not agree with the decision.

I will personally escort you to Fontan's harbor if you wish...

Sir Tempest Fiduciary of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Reginald (6 hours, 12 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) Kataguri : I have never been one too tell someone,what to think, or what too believe..But since you have stated, you will not follow the leadership of this realm,not (fighting besides your brothers and sisters), i too must say I cannot trust you at my back in a fight, And I too,along with Tempest, am more then willing to help you find your way too our borders..

Reginald - Defender of The Light

Reginald (Knight of Fontan) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Siobhan (4 hours, 58 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) Kara got wounded today, how did that happen?

If thisagreement is the reason you want to ban a troop leader, I will leave too. It's too bad that a realm with these ideals (officially) is just a pawn in the political game of the larger realms. No, we haven't been threatened directly, but between the lines of Fontan's proposal you can read a big 'or else...'

Just because he won't fight for an unjust cause - and neither will I - you can't 'keep' him. Sounds like we're treated like pets. Agree or you'll get kicked out. You can't expect to have a discussion group with everyone agreeing, what would be the point of that? Is there a direct line to the 'black hand' here or what?

I just hope I'll never have to see you guys on the other side of the battle-field. So long.

Siobhan (Knight of Fontan) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Jerix (4 hours, 30 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) Siobhan: The agreement is not why they want Kagurati to leave. It's the fact that Kagurati has openly said that if LoF were to go to war with Perdan, he would not fight with us. There is nothing wrong with having an opposing opinion or not agreeing with the majority. However, there is a problem if you are loyal to another realm more than LoF and from whats been said, that seems to be the case.

Jerix Marquis of Negev, Marshal of the army of Fontan [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Siobhan (4 hours, 19 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) From what I gather he does not want to attack a Realm against his principles. He does not agree to kill those he does not consider enemies. I can't see any wrong in that. I full- heartedly agree with him, and if it hasn't been to clear till now, I'll say it again:

I will not take up arms against anyone because it is politically 'interesting'. This would make me a puppet TL in a puppet realm, betraying my own principles. Perdan nor Caligus have never (to my knowing) posed a threat to LoF, but you can bet your lower back Fontan would be kicking us into the sea if they weren't so occupied with Perdan.

Siobhan (Knight of Fontan) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Report from Lycastus (3 hours, 15 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) Letter from Eleran (2 hours, 30 minutes ago) Message sent to: Lycastus Letter from Kagurati (6 hours, 31 minutes ago) Message sent to: Eleran Eleran, Ruler of Yssaria,

I contact you today, as what you'd call a self-appointed diplomat, seeking reprieve from the pushes of Fontan to get my nation to attack either Caligus or Perdan. Since it does not appear that anyone else in my realm is willing to do so, I am going to ask you what it would take for LoF to be granted Domus.

Eleran, I

Letter from Sparky (3 hours, 16 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) Siobhan, you clearly do not understand it. And obviously you will not be understanding it either. The land you are living on is not ours. Our oldest agreement states that we are to move to another location, and if we want to wait for that till someone finds a reason to attack us, that's just plain stupidity, because it will not happen (not counting 50k Fontan/Sirion/OR cs coming down on us at some point). This means the end of the light, the end of the religion, and all our work going to waste. Obviously you thinking higher of the existance of Perdan than LoF and that makes me pointing the direction to the harbour to you too. It's not that Perdan has done anything wrong, only the land they are on is rightfully ours.

I believe you also just stated you would not take up arms against Caligus or Perdan, while you shine through that you will take up arms against Fontan or Caligus? This makes you a Southern Alliance supporter, and we can't use those, because we are not putting any realm above any other, and clearly you can not get this straight in your head.

Sparky Paladin Primus of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Sparky (3 hours, 14 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) And why are you refering to Perdan as "already defeated". I thought they were winning.

This is not about Perdan, it could have been Itorunt as well, it is just the best opportunity that we have, and Perdan is one of those realms that lives for war anyway, so at one point such things will work against you.

Sparky Paladin Primus of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Sparky (3 hours, 6 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) Kara got wounded by a duel btw..

Sparky Paladin Primus of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Nnix (20 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) One reason to attack and gain control of a defeated/dying/weakened/weakest/etc/etc. is to insure that the people are governed by a fair and just goverment (meaning us).

If we DONT attack Perdan anot bend they end up losing, who will control their land? Fontan? Will it become New Coimbria? I thought it was to be set up in Westmoor. I'd rather see those lands under our control.

About the question of loyalty, we are a religious realm. We should be loyal to the Light and not to goverments. If I ever left this realm, who I think of as the guardians of the Light, I would still spread our teachings wherever I go. It would be ideal if everyone felt like that, but i am sure we are all biased. I've seen LoF from the begining and so have given her my whole.

Our move should not be for a tactical or political reasons(though tactical and political methods will surely be used), but a religious one. If we can defend the temple and strike at the darkness better from perdan lands then we should do it. If caligan land needs to be taken to do our task, then we should take it. (i belive our scribes and sages are trying to define 'the darkness'

(ooc: waiting for the RP post about the discoveries at akesh)) (ooc: until Tom impliments temples and religion (priest class) we're pretty much stuck sitting here making money waiting for the day when fontan says give our land back or we attack. which most likely will be when perdan dies. so either we can set it up so that when perdan dies we can have a new place and get fontan to shut up about their land (we can always get it back by force if that get's decided at that time) OR side with perdan and slap fontan so hard sirion gets scared of us. sorry for the rant...)

Nnix (Knight of Fontan) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from zedd (19 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients)

Kagurati, you have no idea how nice of a Judge Hannibal is or how friendly the Harbour option is. If it was me swinging the scepter here I would have already banned you, had a good infiltrator stab you so you couldn't run away for a day or two, captured you when you went rogue and beheaded you for sports and boredom.

And if you don't believe you should ask around by those who come from Fontan, I am probably the Jduge who used the executioners axe the most on this continent.

Sir zedd (Noble) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from zedd (16 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients)

All very fine but you can't live on religion alone. At least I can't. You can start spreading the religion decently only when you have a strong base to start from. And right now we are not positioned so overly well. Perdan is the easiest, fastest and non-treaty breaking way to do get that strong base.

Sir zedd (Noble) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

The last one. It seems like Siobhan and Kagurati have to beat up alone against the rest of the council zho doesnt seem to get zhat this whole war between Fontan and Sirion is about and they just want to join to get some land to stay...

[reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [give medal: Trust Roleplaying]

Letter from Medium (just in) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients)

I have been following this debate a while to get a grip on your personalities and intentions, and your arguments for the war against Perdan. Let me tell you this, this is far from a debate I would expect to be held in a realms council. I have seen arguments passing by in this debate that I would find the biggest possible insult if they were to be used against me.

First of all, Eric, "Oh and by the way insisting that we can cripple Fontan would really make us lose our honor." Indeed, attacking Fontan in the back would be dishonorable, but at this stage attacking the same. You wish to join into a war which apparently you dont know the meaning of its starting from, against a realm that already has to beat up against three strong enemies. I believe that it would not be correct here to call Kagurati dishonorable then, would it

Sparky, you seem to be quite good at twisting words and taking down everyone who doesnt share the same ideas you do. "He has openly admitted not to have heart for our realm." First of all, that is not true at all. All he said was that he would refuse to fight in a meaningless war against a realm that has done nothing wrong to Light of Fountain, never. You could rate this as disobedience yes, but not as not having a heart for his realm, as you call it, and as far as Im concerned, it is not up to you to rate that, nor to sneakingly arrange escorts to the harbour of Fontan. Sir Hannibal is chosen as Judge of Light of Fountain, and thus only he preserves the rights you just used, Sparky. One other thing, "Siobhan, you clearly do not understand it. And obviously you will not be understanding it either." Is this just me, or is this just a lame way of demoralizing and humiliating one of your opponents in this debate, by presenting her as a dumd, disunderstanding person? This is not the way to hold a debate, my friend.

"One reason to attack and gain control of a defeated/dying/weakened/weakest/etc/etc. is to insure that the people are governed by a fair and just goverment (meaning us)." My goodness, Nnix, isn't it already enough to attack them to steal their land, that you even have to attack their Government? Please, proove that their government is unfair and unjust please.

I'm sorry if I sound rude, but Im actually quite dissapointed by these arguments, and they have not quite convinced me to support a war against Perdan. Fontan is interested in the Perdanese lands, for they know that they cannot get Fontan City and surroundings back until there is an area to move Light of Fountain too. Let them loose their own men and gold to beat Perdan. If they decide to form New Coimbra there in the Perdanese lands, they can't ask Fontan and surroundings back, for they need a place for us to stay first. They know they cant beat Perdan alone, they want us to join in by promising us those lands, but we dont have to join in to get these lands, they are only clearing the area to make room for you to recover Fontan City and the regions around, and they blind you all by proposing you these regions in exchange for assistance. They are only virtually liberating the Fontan City area, only somewhere else so that you can move there to leave the Fontan City area for them. Don't you get it? They desparately want Fontan City back, and untill the moment they have found a place for Light of Fountain to be located elsewhere, nothing can happen to us here. There is no need for us to join this war to get land.

Medium (Noble) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Sparky (35 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) Kagurati said:

And no, if LoF declared war on Perdan, I would not aid it.

This is obviously not having heart for the realm, because he thinks that his opinion is worth more than a possible realm's desicion. It's not a twist of words, because this is a literal quote. This is someone you can't rely on.

Kagurati said:

you don't see that Perdan has been fighting Fontan, Sirion, AND Ibladesh all at the same time, and they aren't losing any time soon.

and also:

I do not wish my realm to lose honor in attacking those that are already defeated

This contradiction also approves that he is telling different people diferent things in order to add (false) reasoning with his points of standing. Once again, not a twist of word, but 2 contradicting quotes from the letters of 1 man.

=

Siobhan said:

We have to try to make LoF survive.

That is what we are trying to do, we are finding a more permanent place for us to live where others realms do not

Siobhan said:

have a reason to attack us on.Just because he won't fight for an unjust cause - and neither will I - you can't 'keep' him.

I will not take up arms against anyone because it is politically 'interesting'.

Not as literal as Kagurati, but this can also imply that you will refuse to fight in case it's a realms desicion to follow certain paths.

Siobhan said:

Sounds like we're treated like pets. Agree or you'll get kicked out.

You don't understand it, different views ARE allowed and that are things that CAN be discussed about, but if you refuse to aid the realms interests then you don't belong here.

=

Medium said:

Sparky, you seem to be quite good at twisting words

When did I do that, I believe I have summarized all my points with the quotes included. Apart from this little thing, Anonymous1, your points are reasonable to discuss further about, you do not state that you won't fight for the realms cause, so I can still trust you as a noble. Though I do wish that you take this back, because I have just pointed out my stance.

Sparky Paladin Primus of Light of Fountain

Letter from Medium (just in) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients)

"He has openly admitted not to have heart for our realm."

This is what bothers me, Sparky, for he has not said that...

Medium (Noble) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Sparky (5 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) Anonymous1, then I don't know how you interpret his words, but to me it seems like that he isn't interested in the realm, but more in his own goals.

Sparky Paladin Primus of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Medium (just in) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients)

Then we can both interpretate his words on a different way, and as such I will leave it up to Kagurati to explain his words, and take back mine.

Medium (Noble) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Roleplay from Nnix (39 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) "One reason to attack and gain control of a defeated/dying/weakened/weakest/etc/etc. is to insure that the people are governed by a fair and just goverment (meaning us)."

what I meant here was that we attack and take Perdan's lands so to insure that it DOESN'T fall into the wrong hands. And the three realms who gangbang Perdan don't seem like just and fair. (personally, i think they might still have a decent chance, but not if we join in against them)

and Zedd: Religion is our realm's basis, and I'm sorry if it seemed that i was saying that that was all there is about our realm.

of course we must think of how we can support it economically/politically/militaristically (is that a real word?). Like gaining better income (with perdan's lands we might), moving to a strategically better location, and forming a strong alliance/federation with nations around us.

Nnix (Knight of Fontan) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Medium (just in) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients)

So basicly, Nnix, what you are trying to say is that it is most important that the Perdanese lands do not fall in the wrong hands? Then I wonder why you wish to join that war. Light of Fountain will never be able to perform TO's in Perdanese lands, as our regions do not border to the Perdanese lands. Only Ibladesh and Fontan can now perform TO's in Perdanese lands, except for Colony TO's but that would sound rather stupid now... If we would now go join in that war, we would only weaken Perdan more, giving Ibladesh and Fontan (two of the three realms that you claim to be unfair and unjust) more chances to take over Perdanese regions. So basicly joining this war would result in that what you wouldn't want to happen: the Perdanese lands falling under the unjust governments.

Medium (Noble)

Letter from zedd (1 hour, 15 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) You know, this is starting to look like like Fontan more and more. Last time it was the Old guard against the Sirionite dogs for control over the new TLS. Now it is the Old guard against the Perdan dogs.

Sir zedd (Noble) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Kagurati (56 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) I never said I would fight against LoF while in LoF, I said I would not fight Perdan. The keyword there is "fight". There are many choices a noble has that doesn't involve fighting but also involve serving the realm.

I said they weren't going to lose any time soon, but they will lose unless something changes.

Lycastus, I sent that because a couple high ranking nobles here said that if I could come up with a concrete plan about how to make a deal with Caligus and Yssaria, that they would at least consider it. I asked for a quick answer, because Sparky seems to want me out of here.

And I agree with Medium in both the message he sent about 3 hours and 30 minutes ago, and the one he sent just 30 minutes ago.

Nnix, I’m confused. Could you explain how declaring war on Perdan, and taking their regions, insures that they won’t fall into the wrong hands? As soon as we declare war and take that first region, haven’t we already failed? We have no right to those regions, and as soon as we take one, it’s not in its right hands. Perdan is trying hard to survive this conflict. Now I don’t think they’ll survive forever, but they’ll at least survive for the time being.

Kagurati (Knight of Fontan) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from zedd (31 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients)

Nnix, I’m confused. Could you explain how declaring war on Perdan, and taking their regions, insures that they won’t fall into the wrong hands? As soon as we declare war and take that first region, haven’t we already failed? We have no right to those regions, and as soon as we take one, it’s not in its right hands.

Nnix just says that since he thinks it sounds good to others. We both know it's just an excuse. Now to reply on your attack on his excuse, why would we have any less right to those regions then Fontan? It's take what you can take when you can if you wanna survive. And taking it whitout breaking a treaty allows you to say those excuses and still look honourable towards other realms.

Perdan is trying hard to survive this conflict. Now I don’t think they’ll survive forever, but they’ll at least survive for the time being.

And why would we care for Perdan's survival? Last time I noticed they weren't following the path of the light.

Sir zedd (Noble) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Sparky (28 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) Quote:

Letter from Kagurati (4 days, 16 hours ago) Message sent to everyone in your realm (37 recipients) Caligan noblity is strained enough as it is. It's stupid to torture them... They really don't know that much unless they are high council.

Regardless, Yssaria should pay for the stupidity of their crimes if you ask me. But I'm known to lean towards the direction that aids Perdan in some way or another.

Kagurati (Knight of Fontan)

Letter from Kagurati (4 days, 16 hours ago) Message sent to everyone in your realm (37 recipients) Or better yet, can we use their actions as a Casus Belli (Right of War)?

Kagurati (Knight of Fontan)

Quote:

I said I would not fight Perdan

What is the difference that you're willing to fight Yssaria, and that is all cool and crap, but not Perdan? I wish to know the difference here, in my view this looks extremely biased.

Sparky Paladin Primus of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Kagurati (22 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) Zedd, does ANY other realm on the East continent follow the light other than LoF?

Sparky, perhaps it is biased. I just like the fact of attacking a realm that my family (the family mansion, as well as my sister) reside in. Besides, Perdan isn't even an economical target. We'd have to make a deal with Caligus to even be able to TO their regions. Yssaria is next dorr, so is Fontan. And so is Caligus for that matter. You're not willing to attack Caligus, and they are probably in a better situation than Perdan right now (1vs1 is better than 3vs1)! Perhaps you are a bit biased yourself Sparky.

Kagurati (Knight of Fontan) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from zedd (21 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients)

In my eyes attacking anyone except Fontan is exactly the same. The difference you have with Fontan is that you would be breaking a treaty. And any other patethic excuses are just bullsh*t, your turn again Kagurati.

Sir zedd (Noble) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from zedd (19 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) Agreement with Caligus? That would be extremely stupid, take the region you need to connect to Perdan lands and leave it at that concerning Caligus, what are they gonna do? Send an angry letter?

Sir zedd (Noble) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Kagurati (17 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) Fontan Caligus and Yssaria are all economic targets. Perdan is CLOSE to an economic target, but it is the neighbor of our neighbor. That is what makes our choices different. They aren't economical targets.

Kagurati (Knight of Fontan) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Kagurati (15 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) And so LoF would lose a nice chunk of honor doing that. That is why we don't just take a region from Caligus. We've made deals with them, it'd be a bad move on our part. I'm sure that many ruler understand what honor is.

Kagurati (Knight of Fontan) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Hannibal (6 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients)

It seems that many of you have already made your mind up on the potential war.

One thing I have yet to hear you mention are the lives of the people. Most battles end with hundreds of dead troops, but the nobles live to fight another day. Whilst we argue about the morality of war, hundreds die in battles, with their "noble" leaders rushing back to their capitals to recruit more unlucky souls. I think wars should be quick and decisive, sparing the lives of as many people as possible.

As for Perdan, I do not know if they understand peace. There are other realms that have been at war a lot also, but right now we could help bring an end to this decades long war. I would hope that if we do choose to attack, that we can end the war quickly, and therefore also end the suffering of the people.

We are in a difficult situation, that cannot be denied. Whatever we decide is not going to be 100% right as there simply is no right answer. We have waited a long time for an opportunity to move and leave Fontan's land. We don't know the future, we only know the present. Ysarria won't let us have Domus, so helping Caligus or Ysarria is not going to help us in any way. So really we have two options:

• Wait for someone to declare war on us
• Declare war on Perdan, take a city and move our realm there

I won't accept declaring war on Fontan because they have trusted us (to some extent) from our beginning. It took a leap of faith from them to not war us.

Arguments for the war:

• LoF would be closer to the chaos temple
• LoF would finally have handed back Fontan city
• We could potentially save thousands of lives
• LoF would be independent with a good neighbouring ally (Fontan)
• LoF might be better off financially

Arguments against the war:

• Perdan are not our enemy
• If the war doesn't end quickly we could kill more people than we thought we would save
• There are some LoF members that have family/friends in Perdan and are worried about them

Hannibal Haruspex Maximus of Light of Fountain, Duke of Akesh Temple [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Sparky (just in) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) War itself isn't very honorable..

Caligus isn't honorable, it doesn't keeps their promises..

My proposal DOES improve our overall gold income, so it is economical...

What do they want to do, write us an angry letter that we are unhonorable?

They are the warmongers (they = virtually every other realm on this island), they could never blame us to act dishonorable, things that have been going on for the last 2 years here at least.

Sparky Paladin Primus of Light of Fountain

Letter from Medium (just in) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients)

"Caligus isn't honorable, it doesn't keeps their promises.."

Please explain, Sparky.

Medium (Noble) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Sparky (26 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) Tokat Light of Fountain, duchy of Fontan Unresolved claim of Caligus

Sparky Paladin Primus of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Kratos (just in) Message sent to everyone in your realm (42 recipients) Indeed, I've been in Caligus for a long time and find that slightly offensive..

Kratos (Imperial Knight) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Out-of-Character from Kratos (just in) Message sent to everyone in your realm (42 recipients) Sorry, screwed up message groups again.. sigh

Joost Franssen [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Hannibal (just in) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) As for taking one of Caligus regions. I'm not sure we have to. There are options available that don't require us to take it with force. We could for example ask Caligus to hand it us and we will pay them the gold (or food equivalent) they would have earnt from the region.Once we have moved we could hand the region back. I think that would actually help Caligus as they would not need to maintain a region, but would still get the gold from it.

Hannibal Haruspex Maximus of Light of Fountain, Duke of Akesh Temple [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Medium (just in) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) Nascot has three Recruitment Centers, for Caligus that is much, and one of them is the only Mixed Infantry Center in Caligus. It wouldn't be helping Caligus, and I know the local lord, Solomon, he likes to be there and take care of it.

Medium (Noble) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Medium (just in) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients)

And why would we care for Perdan's survival? Last time I noticed they weren't following the path of the light.

Is that a crime, zedd?

Medium (Noble) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from zedd (just in) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients)

It's not a crime Medium, but Kagurati seesm to think it is a good thing they don't follow the path of the light.

I see that those who come from Perdan and SA realms don't understand how I talk inside my realm. You might have been given a wrong impression from you have seen when I sended stuff as a ruler to your former ruler, I talk kind of sweetly in those. But inside my realm I don't take bullsh*t like this. It is say what you wanna say and then shut up. It is clear there are two groups: 1.those who want to grow fast. 2.their are also those who want to grow fast but not by doing something that could possible cost Perdan or Caligus a single penny.

Now stop the nonsense and leave this realm or start being a member of THIS realm and not the one that send you here.

Sir zedd (Noble) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Eric (9 hours, 35 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) First of all, Eric, "Oh and by the way insisting that we can cripple Fontan would really make us lose our honor." Indeed, attacking Fontan in the back would be dishonorable, but at this stage attacking the same. You wish to join into a war which apparently you dont know the meaning of its starting from, against a realm that already has to beat up against three strong enemies. I believe that it would not be correct here to call Kagurati dishonorable then, would it

Medium this was in response to one of Kaguratai's comment about how it was unhonorable to attack Perdan and then he mentioned the attack on Fontan idea. I was just pointing out that they were both dishonourable and that it was a little hypocritcal of him to make this comment. Please check your sources first before critisizing me.

Eric (Knight of Fontan) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Siobhan (9 hours, 9 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) Sjeez, patethic are those who have to hide behind lies and fake faces.

Self-knowledge is the beginning of all wisdom...

Siobhan (Knight of Fontan) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Lycastus (8 hours, 39 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) Seems alot of heated talk in my weeks meditation (alot of work on)

Can someone sum it up for me in a short list of pros cons and whos for and against and why thanks :D

Sir Lycastus Pontifex of Light of Fountain, Duke of Fontan [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Tempest (2 hours, 19 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) Letter from Siobhan (9 hours, 41 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) There has been a lot of argumentation on why we should go and attack Perdan and why we should not. If we are on borrowed land, let's see if and where we can get a city and some regions from someone who lets us keep it. Is that what the top is saying? "And if we have to kill to do it, that's allright, as long as we don't break any agreements." Paper overrules life. Typical. Sparky, if you would call Caligus dishonourable liars for something that is probably just an error, I would think it fitting for every noble there to challenge you to a duel. For the honour of their realm.

Everything else I have heard pro-war is just plain opportunism. "You get what you need when you can get it."? I would have expected this in many other realms, but not here.

It is not opportunism, it is SURVIVAL. Fontan is giving us a chance to move so they can get their city back. If we deny them then they will take it back by force. And since some of you seem to have this idea in your head, allow me to clear something up for you: If we fight Fontan, WE WILL NOT WIN. In case you didn't understand that I'll say it again, if we fight Fontan WE...WILL... NOT...WIN. If you think taking Karbala from Fontan will cripple them then you are a deluded fool.

If anyone has another idea as to where we can move to then by all means speak up, I'd be more than happy to hear any ideas.

I have been asked if I would willingly fight Fontan. No I wouldn't. Why would I? I would fight them to the skin of my teeth if they ever attack us. That's something else.

Now, the argument that us taking over some regions of Perdan, so they would not fall into the wrong hands, like Fontan or Sirion, is worse than rubbish. That would be like a healer saying "In order to relieve you of your fever I'll kill you."

But I guess I don't get it and never will, eh?

Siobhan (Knight of Fontan)

"In order to relieve you of your fever I'll kill you." That is a terrible analogy, when did we ever say anything along those lines?

Sir Tempest Fiduciary of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Tempest (2 hours ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) Letter from Kagurati (13 hours, 51 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) And so LoF would lose a nice chunk of honor doing that. That is why we don't just take a region from Caligus. We've made deals with them, it'd be a bad move on our part. I'm sure that many ruler understand what honor is.

Kagurati (Knight of Fontan)

You would not take a region from Caligus because we have made deals with them and yet breaking a deal with Fontan is all fine and dandy?

Sir Tempest

Letter from Tempest (2 hours ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) Letter from Kagurati (13 hours, 51 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (17 recipients) And so LoF would lose a nice chunk of honor doing that. That is why we don't just take a region from Caligus. We've made deals with them, it'd be a bad move on our part. I'm sure that many ruler understand what honor is.

Kagurati (Knight of Fontan)

You would not take a region from Caligus because we have made deals with them and yet breaking a deal with Fontan is all fine and dandy?

Sir Tempest Fiduciary of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Tempest (1 hour, 58 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) Letter from Medium (12 hours, 45 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) Sparky, just one thing: Claims can only be controlled by diplomatic relations, and that is now not the problem... Don't call Caligus dishonorable for something they can't help please.

Medium (Noble)

By the way Medium, that's not really what Sparky was talking about (or if he was then there is a better example). I specifically remember getting a message from Vlad telling me that the gold I gave him was only to temporarily get Tokat under our control and yet in a message before that one he told us to keep Tokat. He regretted the deal and tried to back out of it. I believe I still may be able to dig up that message if you don't believe me.

Sir Tempest Fiduciary of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Omega (16 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) I don't know why you are afraid of Sirion they are relatively weak, they only have good archers. Even while I was in Fontan they were complaining of Sirion's ineptitude. I don't think we have much to fear from Fontan while Perdan stands strong. If we decide to attack Perdan I will join you, but I think there is much to be said for attacking Karbala and Al Amarah.

Omega (Noble) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Medium (8 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) What's the point in that? Attacking the realm that's granted is the feavor to live in their lands? We won't be able to hold out long, Fontan and Sirion will come after us and Perdan will stop attacking Fontan because they got Ibladesh to attack. We are not as strong as Perdan, Omega. We can't hold out alone against Fontan and Sirion.

Medium (Noble) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Sparky (19 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) Ok since everyone likes to ignore son of patrick as much as me, I have made an outline of the regions we should capture.

Yssaria regions to go to Caligus (and also the final Caligan set-up):

-Isadril (high income) -Tota (high income) -Leibo -Igno (high income) -Hamadan -Mashad -Abadan -Supra

Caligan regions to go to LoF

-Domus -Scio -Nascot

Yssarian regions to go to LoF

-Winkamus -Aestus -Aerus -Sordidus

LoF regions to go to Fontan

-Negev (high income) -Fontan (high income) -An Najaf -Viseu (high income)

The final set-up of LoF would then be:

-Winkamus -Domus -Scio -Nascot -Aestus -Aerus -Sordidus -Akesh Temple (our temple) -Tokat (high income)

Compared to how we would end up with Fontan's proposal:

-Perdan (high income) -Perdan Mines (high income) -Bescanon (high income) -Nascot -Akesh Temple (our temple) -Meuse -Mulhouse -Patrora (high income) -Dimwood

Both are 9 options, but the plan against Perdan is quicker, will cause less deaths, and has virtually no chance of failure, while the other plan is muchmore dangerous, also for our own survival and has us much less to gain (1 city, compared to 2, less income). This is of course analysed purely on simple situations that are to reach.

Sparky Paladin Primus of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Medium (15 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients)

Compared to how we would end up with Fontan's proposal:

-Perdan (high income) -Perdan Mines (high income) -Bescanon (high income) -Nascot -Akesh Temple (our temple) -Meuse -Mulhouse -Patrora (high income) -Dimwood

How would you get that?

Medium (Noble) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Sparky (11 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) Either pay them for it or otherwise take it

Sparky Paladin Primus of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Medium (just in) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) Although... perhaps... Ibladesh seems quite wrecked (most of the military power they have now is militia in Ibladesh and Al Arab) and not worth for Perdan to pay attention to firstly. Viewing battle reports, Perdan has managed to kick off Ibladesh with half of their army. Perhaps your idea isn't that bad after all, Omega...I believe it really is in Perdan's power to come to aid us if we would attack Fontan... Fontan's army is now in Bescanon, if I'm right. By the time they're here when we have attacked Karbala and Al Amarah, the TO's would already be further a lot, quite likely completed... Fontan would lose 1500 of their weekly income, which we would win. That would make us financially (from 3000 to 4500), and thus also military (higher income is larger army) as strong as Fontan (from 6000 to 4500), and with Perdan we can hold Sirion as well... You want a place to expand? You got one. The Fontan lands are open!

Medium (Noble) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Saruyama (30 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) Honor is something hard to hold on to. So far we have managed to do it. If we attack Caligus after having made an arrangenment with them then we lose all our honor.

However, Perdan, Fontan and Sirion are different propositions. We have no binding agreements with them (as far as I know) and thus we have option to wage war on them. The reasons for waging war are clear. Expansion and a desire to spread our religion. Now all we have to decide is who to attack. Although, I have come over Oligarch and before that from Avamar, I am not blind nor do I leave my personal feelings take hold of me. Yes, I have no love for Sirion nor Fontan because they destroyed Avamar, but I also have no love for Perdan because it was them who abandoned Oligarch to its fate. So for me attacking any of these realms carries the same weight emotionaly.

But for practical issues, I think that Perdan is probably the easiest target in terms of risk but not in terms of geography. We will have a lot of travel time to get there, but on the other hand so will Perdan if they wish to invade us here. So this cuts both ways.

Fontan, is closer to us and perhaps easier to deal militarily because they are overextended, but they have the support of Sirion, and this means that one of them can occupy Perdan and the other deal with us. Not good.

Sirion is not so far away but we cannot attack it for the time being due to the fact that Fontan and may be OR will come to its assistance, not to mention that they can field a very large army.

If the situation was reversed and Perdan with Oligarch were attacking Sirion I would have urged you to attack Sirion, but now I feel that Perdan is the easiest and safest target to attack. As I have said before we have to make certain that we will get something for it.

Saruyama (Knight of Fontan) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from zedd (21 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients)

Which binding agreement do we have with Caligus?

Just so you know, the binding agreement we do "not" have with Fontan as far as you know is the reason why we can coexist peacefully for the time being.

Sir zedd (Noble) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Lycastus (1 hour, 38 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) Alot of arguments and back stabbing lets try to keep it more cival ;)

SoP's treaty looks like **** Sparky and warring Yssaria will not just be them dont forget their ally Itorunt is helping a little still at the moment so really we will war the federation down their. Add to this Fontan are Yssarias allies too I dont think we will last long in that direction.

Also those looking at our army we are failry strong but we have not been in a sustained war which is when our army strength will start to drop quite fast. We need troopleaders to maintatin larger armies not gold. (though it helps a bit)

Sir Lycastus Pontifex of Light of Fountain, Duke of Fontan [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Lycastus (1 hour, 37 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) Honestly most realms would be of minimal risk to us by then, their capitals would be far away from us. Fontan in Krimmil? Sirion in Sirion. Ibladesh in Ibladesh. Yssaria in Isadril. Noones going to be close enough to do anything if we were in Perdan

Sir Lycastus Pontifex of Light of Fountain, Duke of Fontan [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Omega (1 hour, 34 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) If we go to war with Perdan do we do it seperately from Fontan Sirion and Ibladesh with our own goals in mind and not theirs?? Would Fontan be angry if we took the land promised to New Coimbra??

Omega (Noble) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Sparky (1 hour, 30 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) Last thing I heard was that Westmoor would go to New Coimbra, so that leaves the territory to the west open for us..

That is called negotiation =p

Sparky Paladin Primus of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Siobhan (31 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) Just an idea:

What if we take over the Caligus lands (I believe I've read somewhere Vlad would accept this), refuge their TL's, ask Yssaria if they would give us the badlands that once were Caligan (this is optional), that way we get closer to where Top wants us to move (west), we get to return Fontan's lands to them and we might be able to become the neutral haven of peace we should be on this island of bloodshed.

(OOC: You want a roleplay logic to that? Caligan nobles embrace the Path of Light. If they don't they are welcome to move to Perdan, I think Zeb or Sparky would be more than happy to arrange the transport.. ;) )

Siobhan (Knight of Fontan) [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Sparky (24 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in message group "Outer Council" (18 recipients) Where would our capital be.. and how would our realm look like in terms of specific regions?

Sparky Paladin Primus of Light of Fountain [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]