User talk:Marc J./Luz Capital Debate

Thank you very much for putting this discussion here for all to see - this is extremely interesting. TanSerrai

These messages aren't the only ones: I've chronicled more of them on Luz Capital Debate2. ~ Marc J. 16:45, 11 October 2006 (CEST)

As I don't want to be specifically involved in the "Ruler channel discussion" I will ask this here: If LdB is getting hammered in Grehk and in danger of losing the capital, should they choose that time to move the capital back to the previous city it would seem to be of very strategic value and thus worthy of a lightning bolt. So my question is, is moving the capital AWAY from the front when threatened with loss of the city going to get a LB since it's clearly a strategic move - just not an OFFENSIVELY strategic one? (User: jdsiii 11 October 2006)

The fact is that LDB isnt getting hammered in Grekh. Its the fact that Delvin has brought up the argument 4 months after it happend. Plus Grekh is a much better place to have the capitol as it is the most economically best city for keeping the realm together ScottSabin 18:03, 11 October 2006 (CEST)

Delvin did bring up this 4 months after because: Until the recent discussion (during the last week) regarding general movement of capitals he (and all others in Riombara) thought that: 1) the single Lightning bolt hitting Nhoc for moving the capital was all 'punishment' Luz was going to get and Tom did consider the issue closed. 2) Tom's statements during the recent discussion did show that our assumption was wrong and Tom did in fact consider the lightning bolt as a warning that something against the rules did happen /and/ did want this to be reversed. Until now he was simply not aware that the move was not reversed. Tom did expressively ask that the players should deal with this issue OOC.

Regarding Grehk being 'the best city for Luz to keep the realm together': This may be partially even be the case. However, the difference between Grehk and Jidington (or even Eylmon or Eno) are so low that moving the capital /only/ because of this would most probably be a waste of effort and ressources. Plus economically it only makes (a little) sense in regard of an undead invasion (guaranteed to not occur for at least 6 more months).

Moving your capital right up to the front during a time when war with Riombara was already decided upon and going to happen within 2 weeks 'only for economic reasons of keeping the realm under control more easily' is an argument I'd be very carefull to put before Tom. This is close to the 'laywer' speak he really hates.

I can offer a timeline of events to clarify this, using only facts (please correct any fact that is wrong):

April/May: 1) Tensions between Riombara and Luz/Enweil rise.

June: 2) (assumption) Enweil and Luz decide to attack Riombara in the near future. Avalon is informed and agrees to attack Fronen. Riombara is thus isolated (brilliant diplomacy so far).

3) Luz moves its capital to Grehk, right at the only border they expect to have to fight.

4) Luz repairs its regions.

5) 1 week after the movement of Luz capital: Luz and Enweil start a recruiting drive (the spikes can be seen in the military power graph). Riombara monitors this through infiltrators.

6) Enweils army is spotted moving towards Fwuvoghor.

7) 2 weeks after the movement of the capital: Enweil and Luz declare war against Riombara and attack.

8) Avalon declares war against Fronen.

Now my question: How probable is it that Luz movement of their capital was done only because of economic reasons /and/ the decision to go to war did happen to be decided during the two weeks between Luz moving their capital and their attack? How probable is it that Luz did not know that they'd go to war against Luz 2 weeks before attacking? TanSerrai 18:51, 11 October 2006 (CEST)

"Until now he was simply not aware that the move was not reversed" Tom has a char in Luz called Testing Oaths, he has probly been aware of the capital not being moved back but has never raised it.

Also you say that Luz's reason for moving the capital is purely about the war. Wasnt it Riombara that made this war happen by not agreeing to the treaty with Luz? And that Delvin came into our lands even when we asked/told him not to.

You say we should change our capital....how about Eno...it was there before (Eno Chia..Luz Mother Realm) But then you could say that we are doing it for the stategic advantage over Irombro. ScottSabin 20:16, 11 October 2006 (CEST)

Delvin made clear from the end of the invasion that Luz wasn't likely to get Bolkenia and Cagamir back without a fight. Riombara didn't declare war; Luz did. Luz made long and careful preparations with Enweil and Avalon, moved their capital, and declared war.

How do you figure Riombara "made this war happen"? --Anaris 03:58, 12 October 2006 (CEST)

My main problem with the cap being in Eno OR Grehk is utter lack of RP basis. What LUNATIC puts there capitol in a city that, about 2 years earlier (game terms) was the center of a civil war? Well, NOBODY does in real life... but in BM they do. Why? Because BM game mechanics favor that sort of behavior. THATS why its abuse. Because in real life, no such thing would happen, and the only reason it happens in BM is for strategic advantage. Grehk is NOT economically more advantageous. It leaves your RICHEST REGION, Eno, farther away. It makes regions like Cagamir more prone to rebellion. Of course, the Bolkenia barrier has something to do with that too. Now, about Eno, that doesnt make any RP sense either. You just got it from the Undead... what.... 9 game months ago? A game year ago? Yeah, um, nobody puts there capitol in a city that was the second biggest hotbed of evil in the continent (Rines being the largest hotbed, according to the research I've done, of Undead sproutings). Now, that said, Tom's testing chars never pay attention to their surroundings. He doesnt even read most of the messages, I believe. Just tests new features. He had one in Norland when I had a char there, never sent a single message, and I doubt if Tom takes the time to read through all the messages in a realm, or even pays attention to them. Also, I dont see the problem with waiting four months. In US law, you have something like SIX YEARS to raise a case. Why is four months such a problem? Plus, new evidence has surfaced, and a previously inconclusive case is simply being reopened. Also, Timothy didnt say just to change capitols. He said to change capitols back to how they were, which means Jiddington. Of course go to Eno if you want... Rio will take the entire north of LdB, and you still wont succeeed in TOing Irombro city, lol. Behold the power of priests. Vellos 00:23, 12 October 2006 (CEST)