Talk:The Fronen Commentator/Edition:2

I believe Retravic is well aware of the consequences. But, you see, we in the CCA prefer to do what is morally right. Vellos 13:51, 5 January 2007 (CET)

ay! I love this! Morally right as in 'defined by Hireshmont'? Or morally right as in 'what profits Irombrozia?' Or morally right as in 'lets attack those whom we worked together with'? Or morally right as in 'lets break an alliance'? I admit to some confusion there...grin TanSerrai 14:06, 5 January 2007 (CET)

Why should Fwuvoghor have to listen to anyone regarding it's right of passage policy? Right now, Riombara and Irombrozia are enemies. Fwuvoghor and Irombrozia are allies. Riombara and Fronen are allies. Given these facts, I think it is only normal that Fwuvoghor denies passage to Fronen, as they may be marching to attack Irombrozia as well as Luz de Bia. So basically, Fronen is the one who denies one realm to help their allies, under threat of war. This anti-Luz alliance seems to have a knack for that. First Thalmarkin meddles in, than Old Grehk started playing the 'ally's defense' card, and now Fronen wants to threaten a tiny realm to let them through? Why don't you cowards march through Enweil instead, I'm sure we could arrange a nice welcoming comittee. You all were so courageaous when it was Luz de Bia against all her enemies, but now that Irombrozia is no longer fighting Luz de Bia, and Enweil has appeared on stage, you have to result to backdoor tactics to regain your overwhelming advantage. Old Grehk, Fronen, Riombara, and Alluran against a part of Enweil's forces, the remnants of Luz de Bia's armies and a small seceded realm with little military might... what a brave war you fight. I predict that somewhere down the line, you'll be pushing Plergoth and Sint to start the war with Enweil again, just to keep us away from the south... you are not warriors, you're weaseling politicians, and if there is one thing I hate, it's a politician. I spit on you, your banners and your dead. -Pizarro

Hm...maybe it should be mentioned that Riombara and Fwuvoghor had a defensive alliance for a rather long time. That was cancelled and replaced by a rather hostile intent without comment. I think that is defined as 'breaking an alliance'...And I'd like to get some more facts straight: This war was started by Enweil and Luz against Riombara - more than 2:1. When it was 'luz against all her enemies', Luz had an income base of nearly the same than her enemis combined, including the fact that Fronens capital was far away. Now its Riombara against Luz (both have the same income base), aided by Alluran on our side, and Irombrozia plus Enweil on the other side. If that is your picture of a fair fight...or of an 'overwhelming Riombaran advantage'...grin. Lastly - I do not spit on both Enweils or Luz' dead. They are courageous warriors - only our governments have differences in view on several matters. Thats about it. If you feel the need to spit on our dead - your choice.

You missed a few allies it seems. What about Old Grehk? They invaded our land in force to keep us away from the south, supported by assassination attempts on our nobles. Thalmarkin has already declared war on both us and Luz de Bia. Fronen is also deeply involved. Fronen and Old Grehk are superpowers much like Enweil. So yes, I would call Riombara + Fronen + Old Grehk + Alluran (+ Thalmarkin) vs Luz de Bia + Enweil + Irombrozia (who are more of an ally of opportunity anyway) an overwhelming Riombaran advantage. This war is bigger than the battles near Grehk, friend. I don't know much about the history of this war and how it started, but as a great philosopher once said: 'In war, truth is the first casualty', so I'm cautious when listening to such arguments. They do not concern me. All I see is the manner in which this war is waged, and judging by the numbers your side is throwing in, your idea of honorable combat is involving as much allies of yours as possible. Brute force, nothing else. -Pizarro

Why is someone from Enweil telling us not to fight RoF? They want to protect an ally, sure, that's understandable, but they do not seem to realise that is it that ally who attacked Riombara, our ally. And really, this could, and perhaps should, have been an act of war against the alliance, against Fronen. Siding with Iromboriza, RoF is also, in a way, declaring war on Fronen and her allies. This does not seem like a wise move to do. Iromboriza used to have my sympathy, but declaring war on Riombara made them look incredibly stupid (and now that I think about it, opportunist), and now convincing RoF to side with them against Riombara. This is not a simple "it's our land" thing, it's an outright act of war. Review this policy, fast, or the whole of Fronen might just want to do away with you once and for all, along with the rest of the CCA who just seems to like to pick at our allies. On a side note, I must say Avalon's involvement in the west in incredibly distastfull. Involving themselves in a conflict against our allies, even though it's in a way that doesn't break the treaty, just calls for retribution, which would also not break the treaty. -Chénier 18:30, 5 January 2007 (CET)

Fwuvoghor is part of the Ceded City Alliance, which in itself has nothing to do with Riombara or Luz de Bia. They just happen to be smack in the middle of warring realms, 'blocking' Fronen's way into the south. And given your latest reasoning, they seem to have had two choices: grant Fronen right of passage, or risk an attack. So in a way, Fronen is the aggressor here. And Irombrozia trying to get Fwuvoghor to side with them is a whole lot different than Fwuvoghor actually doing something. What if they want to stay neutral? You're not giving them much opportunities, are you? "Let us through so we can help destroy your ally, or be destroyed yourself." Would you have done the same thing if they had an army three times bigger than yours? There are other ways into the south, but unfortunatly for Fronen, all those ways run through Enweil. So my question remains: Why not grant Fwuvoghor their neutrality, and take the scenic route down south? Let's see how many of you make it to Grehk if you have to move through our back yard to get there... -Pizarro

Why not go through Enweil? Because far too many of us, in my opinion, follow the Order of the Great Dragon, and they have gotten in their minds that the idea of attacking you is rediculous, because we share this religion. A war with Enweil, I wouldn't mind, but this doesn't seem to be the interest of the others, which leaves us with 1 choice, RoF. So yes, even if their army was three times bigger (though that would still make it inferior to ours, if I remember correctly), I would advocate going through their lands. It is the shortest, most efficient, route. And yes, the CCA has a good deal to do with Riombara and LdB, as Iromboriza and the Kindom of Alluran were formed from their duchies. Fronen will not stand and watch Enweil, LdB, and Iromboriza gang up on Riombara because some minor realm felt like being important. It is quite obvious that the RoF, by cutting of Riombara from her ally, is doing an act of war. Fronen will either have to negotiate with them, deal with them, or ignore them outright and pass through their lands. Whatever she chooses, the most RoF can gain out of this is to spare Iromboriza's life (which was never our target anyhow), the most she can lose is... Her right to exist. -Chénier 19:45, 5 January 2007 (CET)

You missed my point. I asked you if you would still pressure Fwuvoghor if the roles were reversed, and their army was three times bigger as yours. As for Enweil, our ties with Luz de Bia make us an enemy of your cause anyway, and as such, we are in a de facto state of war with Fronen no matter what. Whether you fight us in Grehk or near our northern border should make no difference. Third, Enweil and Irombrozia only joined later in the war, when Fronen was already involved. Irombrozia was on your side for a long time as well, so that argument is null and void. Also, why is religion such a scare for you? Religion and politics are two completely different things. Many of my countrymen are Eretzists or Dragonists, while I myself am a follower of Qyrvaggism, yet we fight side by side. Many of Enweils enemies are Qyrvaggists as well, but I will not hesitate to strike them down on the battlefield. Religions are not bound by realm borders. Using them as an excuse to keep bullying Fwuvoghor is pathetic. -Pizarro

If RoF had an army three times stronger than ours? Than engaging them or not, we would not be able to help Riombara. But that isn't the case, and we have the opportunity, and therefore the obligation, to help them. I did not include myself in those that do not want to engage Enweil. I share you opinion on this point, and I would very much like to engage you in battle... It's closer than LdB anyways. And as for "bullying" RoF... The fact that RoF is weak will not stop us from aiding Riombara, that'd be moronic. If they were the same strenght as us, or slightly stronger, we'd probably engage them anyways, if so is RoF's wishes. I expect them to suffer the same Fate Avalon did when they attempted such a thing. The route though Riombara (and therefore RoF) is the fastest, safest, most efficient and most logical route, the one assuring our soldiers fighting LdB are in their best shape. We have no reason to make a detour. -Chénier 21:17, 5 January 2007 (CET)

Oh, and let me remind you that Enweil and Fronen are "Friends". -Chénier 21:20, 5 January 2007 (CET)

Trust me, "friend", if anyone wearing a Fronen emblem stands against Enweil on any battlefield, they will be treated as enemies. As for Fwuvoghor, had Dirrik not seceded, it would be Enweilian territory. Would you have attempted to bully us into letting you pass, simply because the city of Fwuvoghor happens to be the only link between the mainland and the Riombaran islands? What if it had been an entirely neutral realm? A more powerful realm? If I follow your reasoning, a quick and efficient route to your enemy is a valid excuse to harass a small realm into following your bidding. Seems to me you care little about the sovereignty of other realms, especially if they happen to be small and located between you and your allies. -Pizarro

Let me remind you that every time Fronenian soldiers were present when Enweil assisted LdB, we stayed out of the fight. And I cannot tell you what Fronen would have done if X,Y,Z, for X,Y,Z are nothing but "ifs", and have no created any kind of reaction amonst Fronen's nobles, as they aren't reality. I am not the ruler, so saying what I would do changes nothing. This incessant speculation goes nowhere. Fronen and RoF were getting along perfectly, untill RoF decided to be the "tough guy" and deny us passage, for an invalid reason. Our buisness down south is with Riombara and Luz de Bia alone, and none else. By denying us passage, they are involving themselves in a conflict that isn't theirs. This is not about bullying, as you seem to like to portray it. It is about some minor realm playing the though guy against a major realm. It is plain stupidity, and they will pay for it, one way or another. -Chénier 21:52, 5 January 2007 (CET)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Riombara and Irombrozia are enemies. Whether you actively fight the Irombrozians or not, you are still helping Riombara against them. The fact that you just focus on Luz de Bia does not change that, as your aid allows Riombara to fight Irombrozia. Fwuvoghor and Irombrozia are allies, so I don't think you could deny that Fwuvoghor is doing its best to safeguard Irombrozia from harm. The EXACT same thing you are doing with Riombara. The only difference is that Fwuvoghor is not helping militarily, but simply by denying your troops passage, which they have every right to do, since you are not their masters. They do not even need a valid reason. It is their land, they are a sovereign realm who apparently wish to no longer interfere in the war on any level. So by demanding passage, you are in fact bullying them into doing your bidding, as the only alternative is a war thay cannot win. It is a lose-lose situation for them, and a win-win for you. Either you get to march though Fwuvoghor to help the enemies of their ally Irombrozia, or you don't get to march through and you attack and likely destroy them as a whole. A classic example of bully behaviour. And those ifs do matter, in fact. They give us a valuable insight in your realm's policy, i.e. 'only pick fights with weaker opponents'. -Pizarro

Our realm's policies? It's more like "gloat about how good we are, but never dare declare war on someone else. What would people think of us!?!". That's how Fronen is being run, and have been for a while. I am not part of the council, nor senate, so I feel 100% free to state my opinion, even if it goes against Fronenian policies. Trust me, I'd like nothing more than a war on Enweil, but that just isn't going to happen. That is, unless Enweil declares war on us or reaches OG lands. So if you want, do me a favour, and try to get Enweil to declare war on us, I'll appreciate it tons, I'll even give you my special writing pen! -Chénier 22:18, 5 January 2007 (CET)

There is a long and detailed history between Enweil and Fronen, there is good reason why they do not fight each other. -- Neoro 22:23, 5 January 2007 (CET)

As a the King of Irombrozia, and a member of the CCA, and fellow journalist, and a reasonably intelligent person, I'd like to make a few statements. Firstly, Chenier, get your facts straight. The members of the CCA are RoF, Irombrozia, Heen, Khthon, and Vlaandaren. KoA is not a member. Secondly, again, get your facts straight. Retravic surprised every member of the CCA by her closure of RoF's borders. I hadn't heard a word about it, nor had any CCA leader as far as I know. Thirdly, you say the CCA is picking at your alliances allies. Laughable. The administration of Plergoth which allied with Fronen is currently in Vlaandaren, fighting the Plergoth which is very heavily Enweil influenced. And, also, do you say that Vice and VN are allies of yours? Nextly, your Path of the Great Dragon arguement is very weak. PGD and Qyrvaggism are variants, we're on good terms. If the PGD is so against fighting Enweil, they would probably also be against fighting Irombrozia. Also, keep in mind, the national religion of Enweil is Eretzism. Next matter to point out, Chenier, Irombrozia is not opportunistic. We stopped fighting Luz de Bia when they were in their darkest hours. Why? Because we refused to fight against a realm so weakened and exploited; there was no honor in it. Besides, our moral conscience had been justified, we had achieved the vengeance we desired, and, due to KoA's secession, accidently went over the top. Then, yes, we attacked Riombara. But, firstly, they had 12-24 hours warning, which means, yes, it was still a surprise attack, but no more than, say... Old Grehk's. Also, it was a surprise attack in that it was very swift, but any Riombaran that was actually SURPRISED by it must have been smoking some Sirionite herb. About RoF, attacking them is just bullyish behavior. Now, you see Chenier, here is where we differ. I determine how to run my nation, and our foreign policy, as much as possible by moral and ethical guidelines. You will note, since I came into power, there have been no lootings. In fact, for much of my generalship, I tried to refrain from looting as much as possible. Why? It's ethically unsound. Maybe sometimes it is necessary, but it's still unethical. Likewise, Irombrozia, even if we had the power, does not and would not bully. I sincerely hope your new PM doesn't attack RoF. In strengthening Riombara, Fronen aids and abet's Riombara's side in the War of Irombrozian Secession. Please note, KoA and LdB, together, have a HIGHER income than Irombrozia and Luz de Bia. You might say Enweil unbalances this; I disagree. Why? Look at how long Fronen has been involved down here. Look at the campaigns Thalmarkin has launched. Altogether, let's make an estimate. How many CS of Fronen and Thalmarkin troops would you say have passed through Fwuvoghor to aid RIombara? 75k? 100k? Well. Enweil has, thus far, send 26k total. That makes, what, another 74k until the playing field is level? RoF is doing the right thing and remaining NEUTRAL. In allowing Fronen and such to pass through, they were NOT being neutral. Now they are being neutral. The only true neutrality is an isolationist neutrality, such as the one RoF has adopted for now. Really, though, there is a very simple solution. All Riombara has to do is recognize us as an independent and sovereign realm, and end hostilities, and treat us with the same respect they give to other nations. Vellos 23:26, 5 January 2007 (CET)

From a rather neutral point of vieuw (Avalon). This conflict is actually non-existand. If i get it right, RoF Refuses passage for Fronen. Then i fail to see the problem. Fronen has a 20 000cs mobile army atleast (when they try). They already have passage trough Avalon so they could attack RoF without anything in their path. So gather your forces, Attack RoF, breach the walls, break them down to lvl 1. And then you have free passage ;) I do think Fronens point of vieuw is correct, now that Irombrozia gone aggressive against Riombara, and the "all mighty presence" of Enweil, means it is no longer an easy 4vs1 war, its now chaos, and RIombara really can use those Fronen legions now. And it is only a mather of time before The Kingdom of alluran falls, reenforcing luz again. My advice, Beat the crap out of RoF and help your ally's! We all know that once your army stand before those walls RoF will allow anything ;). Pelgrims 0:34, 6 January 2007 (CET)

Your ethical and moral conscience is genuinely astounding. Your forthrightness of advancing pure and unadulterated machiavellian tactics of complete moral relativism are an example for all tyrants, murderers, and criminals of the world to envy. Vellos 00:36, 6 January 2007 (CET)

Ah, now now, don't you worry. The chances of us attacking RoF are slim to none. It's not good for our sacred reputation, or so I'm told. I'm hardly saying what will be done, in above statements, but purely what I think should be done. Now now... Why would Avalon want us to attack RoF? Got another trick up your sleeves? Oh, I'm watching you, how I wish you would break that treaty of ours... -Chénier 00:59, 6 January 2007 (CET)

Dude from Avalon: Riombara is winning, and KoA will not fall soon because of it. They might fall if luz decided to actually give in and surrender Grekh and Mio Dupaki to us. Otherwise we will be forced to continue fighting, on our many fronts, against armies about twice our size. And still win.

Hireshmont: You claim morals on the grounds of not looting, well isn't that great. However, not only do we not loot, we also don't run the hostile takeovers you do that would slay the administration, instead stopping them before you can get on with your organised acts of killing.

Re RoF: They have made a stupid move by refusing Fronen passage. Riombara helped ensure their survival and now block Fronen's passage on fimsy grounds, to say the least. Claims thtat Fronen aids against Irombrozia is stupid. Irombrozia has never been assaulted by Fronen - come to that we don't even assault Irombrozia, they attack us and we expel them from our lands on a fairly regular basis. We wish to see our Fronen friends aiding us, but as we have proived since my arrival, we have the leadership to manage to do without them. All RoF manages is to stir up the hornets nest by offending people. --The1exile 01:11, 6 January 2007 (CET)

As always, Gorch, you are hilarious to read. Ever considered a career in stand-up comedy? Anyways, you're saying you don't run hostile TOs? Very interesting. I think you're lying, but oh well. Also, we do not execute officials, and have not in, for example, Rii. We have, in fact, arrested them, and escorted them to the region's borders (unless they are willing to work for us, in which case we keep them), along with their family and any possessions they choose to take with them. If they choose to resist, or if they return with intent to do harm to Irombro, then we take more aggressive action. Are you seriously telling me Riombara doesn't hang, forgive me, I meant behead, percieved rebels and such? I seem to remember a certain recent execution. Also, not looting is not my only, or primary, claim to moral high ground. I'd say both of us wage an equally clean/dirty war here, however you want to view it. But, I believe we are more justified in fighting. Anyways, that's a topic for another day. Fronen does not aid against Irombrozia, nobody said that. What was said that Fronen aids Riombara. You will note, RoF blocked off access through Fwuvoghor, not to Fronen, but to allies of Riombara. Yes, that includes Fronen. But it wasn't an action meant to be taken against Fronen or any specific nation, other than perhaps Riombara. Vellos 01:50, 6 January 2007 (CET)

Please enlighten me as to which other ally of Riombara passes through the RoF? I am not one of you royals who enjoy playing with words to get them to create your own reality to hide facts. As far as I know, Fronen is the only one (perhaps to the exeption of a few nobles) who passed by there. It was a measure aimed directly as us, to say otherwise would be hypocritical. -Chénier 02:12, 6 January 2007 (CET)

---

Well it seems my article has been quite though provoking. Let me make a few statments.

Lets see... First, am I shocked to hear than an Avalonian is AGREEING with Fronen. I do not believe my ears. Master Pelgrims, a man of your sensibility should not be in a realm of fools. I encourage you to head northwards and join us in Fronen.

Second, "King" Hiereshmont, I think you are acting entirely out of self-interest. Why should Riombara recognize Irombrozia as a sovereign nation. Irombrozia's creation came from a secession, TREASON against their Republic. Why on earth should they recognize your right to exist? I'm equally shocked to hear that YOU are the one whom Legatus holds in high regard. He and I shall have to talk.

Third, RoF is without a doubt provoking Fronen. Neither Old Grehk nor Thalmarkin send their armies to the extent Fronen does. Fronen is the only nation that has made SIGNIFICANT difference in Riombara's favor. If RoF were to close its borders to everyone but Fronen it would hardly make a difference for Riombara, however closing borders for Fronen will be a major setback and will waste our time and men.

Fourth, Fronen is in no way "bullying" RoF. By contrast, they are bullying Riombara. Riombara has never made war on another nation. They've only responded to OTHER NATIONS (aka Enweil, Luz, Irombrozia)'s Declarations of war. Riombara didnt start this conflict, they are only trying to take back what is rightfully theirs. Luz and Enweil took a city and three Riombaran regions. Irombrozia then seceded taking with it two more regions and a second city. That halved Riombara's size did it not? Was Riombara "bullying" then? As of now Riombara has STILL not regrown to that strength. How is it then bullying for us to help the DEFENDERS, who are still two cities and two regions weaker than when they began? I think it was very nice of us to have made peace with RoF in the first place considering their capital was Riombaran soil pre-war.

Nobody complained when it was Enweil and Luz de Bia (and Avalon actually by attacking Fronen) had Riombara at its knees yet now, when a weakened Riombara finally sees some victories it is shunned by the world? I see no logic in this.

Fifth, I do not see how RoF's decision is "morally right". I think it was in fact morally wrong. The Great Dragon has proclaimed that it is right an dproper to defend the honor of your friends. Yet, RoF a FRIEND of Riombara and Fronen has betrayed us both to join the CCA. They have instead attacked the honor of their friends. This is disgraceful.

Sixth, Master Hiereshmont, I contest the way you call RoF's action a proclamation of neutrality. they are in no way neutral. They are strictly cutting off support for Riombara. They have not denied those who would attack Riombara passage. Thus, they are not neutral but have instead realigned themselves against Riombara.

Seventh, Fronen does not wish to travel through Enweil. I am holding a referendum now, but I personally do not want war with Enweil. I consider them friends, and more importantly Fronen and Enweil ar ethe two most powerful realms on the continent. The loss of Fronenian lives would skyrocket.

In conclusion with brevity, I think there is no denying that RoF's new closed border policy is aimed directly at Fronen. Furthermore, I think that by signing that alliance with Riombara, an alliance that existed since before I immigrated here we gave them our word that they'd have our support. It is only right for us to give them our aid. I think you Master Hiereshmont are merely an opportunist. You did not fight Riombara when the East Coast Alliance troops saved your realm from Luz de Bia. Now when Enweil joins the fray and attacks Riombara you strike at them. I think it is nescessary and proper for Fronen to continue to aid Riombara. That is all.

--Alex 03:08, 6 January 2007 (CET)(Character:Alexius)

I shall respond piece by piece. Firstly, in what way was Irombrozia such a criminal? Riombara had no law against secession, and still doesn't to this day, as far as I am aware. Not only this, but the secession of Irombrozia saved the city of Irombro from Luz de Bian rule. Honestly, I don't understand why Riombara hates us so much and, for that matter, why Plergoth hates Vlaandaren so much. It baffles me. It is the right of a duke to secede if his interests are not protected by the nation he chooses to have his duchy be part of. Secondly, concerning the relative neutrality or effect of RoF's closed borders, I have a few things to say there. I believe that, if anyone bothered to try, RoF could probably be convinced to close borders to enemies of RIombara as well. That is to say, complete closed borders. But, whatever the case, be it neutrality or action against Riombara, I applaud it. You see, Alexius, you have fallen for a common political manuever, one used by cheap charlatans and those of little courage. You are correct, Riombara has declared no wars. But it is impossible to say those wars were not at least in part their fault. For example, the war with Irombrozia would never happen if they would recognize our sovereignty and independence. It's not so unreasonable a request. Regarding Enweil and Luz de Bia, I was IN Riombara at the time. And, let me tell you, the realm was begging for war. Prime Minister Delvin gave statements to the effect that he was trying to provoke a war. Everyone on the continent wanted a war (OOC- Beluaterra was quiet, so lots of people were bored and wanting wars). Perhaps Riombara did not declare war, but that is largely because they hide behind diplomatic stances. For example, Irombrozia's diplomatic stances reflect our opinions on realms as nearly as possible. We never have alliance with a realm which we do not truly consider to be our friends, or anything like that. Yet RIombara declares a peace of necessity with us, while still openly advocating our destruction. Has the Path of the Great Dragon nothing to say about hypocrisy? Forgive me, I am not a learned man in religion, but it seems to me the PGD would not appreciate the sort of hypocrisy present in Riombara's behavior. They do not declare wars, they create them, and leave the dirty work to others. The fundamental problem with Irombrozia's politics is that we have a bit of an obsession with being honest and forthright, hence why I have condemned the actions of my enemies AND my allies on many occasions. Nextly, what makes you so sure RoF was a friend of Riombara and Fronen? They were your ally, that means very little. Plus, RoF's politics have always been dictated by the bullyish tactics of larger neighbors. They allied with Rio and such lest Enweil should destroy them. Then, Fronen and Thalmarkin and Rio USED RoF to get forces to Riombara. Tell me, where was RoF's advantage in this? The only one I can see is not being destroyed, hence, bullyish tactics. Also, the CCA is not opposed to Fronen at all. I happen to have enormous respect for Fronen, and personal liking for many members of Fronen whom I happen to know. Also, keep in mind: I was not King when Riombara and Irombrozia were working together. Not only this, but, while the ECA was very brave and lost many lives relieving the seige of Irombrozia, ECA banners have been in Irombro a total of one time. And, even then, it was just two RoF TLs coming to aid us against an attack on our capitol. Fronen and Rio passed through Bolkenia occasionally (naturally, without asking permission or offering any thanks for the easy passage). No, we did not fight you. Why? Our primary moral battle was with Luz de Bia, which defiled the honor of our Queen at the time. Then we had to avenge the lives lost in the Sack of Irombro. When those things wer erepayed, we withdrew ASAP, not wanting to take a single more life. In fact, we withdrew just as LdB was looking very weak, for KoA had just seceded, and Rio/Fronen were smashing LdB in Grehk and such. Irombrozia withdrew from Rio at Rio's strongest, and joined LdB at LdB's weakest. We are, if anything, the polar opposite of opportunist. Vellos 04:06, 6 January 2007 (CET)

Ah, royals are always so ever wise! The whole of Beluaterra's royal blood in tainted with yak blood, if you ask me! If Alexius feels like continuing, so be it. The truth is, I don't give a damn about your realms, and if I'm ordered to destroyed, don't expect any bit of remorse from me. (OOC- Seriously, what is all this crap about morals and such? It almost sounds as if people are RPing from a 20th centry's prespective! While in RL I would be totally offended by the concept, this is just a game, a medieval-themed game, and therefore, men are not created equal. What would of happened in the middle ages if some puny realm decided they wanted to be important and chalenged a bigger realm, such as France or England? They'd be conquered! They wouldn't even keep any region for themselves, they would be outright conquered, exterminated, assimilated. What is this about being "morally right"??? It's simply damn annoying, and I'd wish people would stop acting like ethical beings and start acting like the selfish greedy narcissist nobles they should be.) -Chénier 04:23, 6 January 2007 (CET)

What would of happened in the middle ages if some puny realm decided they wanted to be important and chalenged a bigger realm, such as France or England? They'd be conquered! They wouldn't even keep any region for themselves, they would be outright conquered, exterminated, assimilated.

cough: Vatican :cough: ~ Marc J. 05:59, 6 January 2007 (CET) (Just cause I'm dead doesn't mean I can't be sarcastic! :P )

Vatican? Isn't that where the head of the religion that controlled all the christian nations was? I'd hardly call that puny, though I know very little about mideival Vatican. -Chénier 06:15, 6 January 2007 (CET)

OOC- Actually, Chenier, you have a very large error there. Morality played a HUGE role in medieval politics. Or, more correctly, proper manners, ettiquette, honorable behavior, etc. Many small nations, such as Navarre, Florence, the Papal States, Burgundy, the German City States, Denmark to a lesser extent, and hundreds of small nations through Europe and the middle east were continuously ticking off larger powers. Study medieval political history and you'll see very quickly that even nations that could be argued as illegitimately seceded got respect and fairness from foreign realms. The idea that all nobles were selfish and narcissistic is also a common historical fallacy. They were humans like us, and humans much more dominated by Catholic Christian morality. The Middle Ages were not devoid of morality, they just had a different morality. Notably, peasant's lives would have been largely disregarded (but certainly not always, especially in the later Middle Ages), but proper manners and due respect to honorable conduct would have been an important affair. You REALLY want to be a noble? Okay. Warn your enemy before you attack them, don't fight on sundays, be chivalrous to female nobles (not to peasant ladies of course), and, best of all, make sure you never outnumber the foe by too much. Why? Not doing those things is bad manners: a breach of honor. I'm not saying all medieval nobles were the paragon of morality and always followed the rules, but they were more like us than we like to imagine. They were not just barbarians given swords. Vellos 06:42, 6 January 2007 (CET)

Master Hiereshmont,

I know nothing of Riombaran law. It seems that in these times, secession is generally considered treason. Irombrozia has by seceding, taken land, wealth, and people from Riombara. Common sense tells me that is flat out betrayal. Are you honestly telling me that you would LET others take your gold and land if you were in Riombara's position?

I doubt any other nation wanting to harm Riombara would take the Fwuvoghor route. Enweil has their own pathway. Avalon is bound by treaty not to attack Riombara. Nobody wants to travel through Fwuvoghor except Fronen. Therefore, I wont talk about Fwuvoghor not letting enemies through since no Riombaran enemy really wants or needs right of passage.

I do not deny that Riombara probably wanted war at the start. So too did Fronen want war with Avalon, yet we are never the ones to start these things. The Path of the Great Dragon says that only those who would do harm to us, our friends, or mankind itself are to be attacked. Therefore, when ti comes to war it is right and proper to fight only when war is declared by the opposing party. For Fronen to go out on a whim and declare war on say Melhed would be ethically wrong because we cannot prove Melhed would harm mankind. In turn on moral ground Riombara was right in not declaring war, for until Luz de Bia declared war Riombara could not be sure whether or not Luz would harm mankind.

Next, Fronen wants to use Fwuvoghor not nescessarily RoF. We dont care who owns the city, but we need that route to Riombara. We, or atleast I dont care what RoF does so long as a) it doesn't attack us or our allies and b) It lets us travel freely to Riombara. I do not want to harm RoF if it can be avoided. You can call that "bullyish", but I really dont think it is. We aren't demanding tribute or asking them to send troops to Riombara, we just want free passage and peace. What advantage is there in RoF joining the CCA. All the CCA members are now embroiled in their own separate wars now. You of of no use to RoF. Fronen can provide military assisstance when needed because we have no border wars of our own and our military is state of the art, well-coordinated, and highly effective(as the Fronen-Avalon war had shown). Irombrozia is a new state that has just barely survived, is on territory claimed by TWO nations, and the CCA is geographically further from RoF than the ECA is. It may not be much but its more than the CCA can offer RoF.

Now that brings me to your Ceded Cities Alliance. I have no animosity towards the Allaince as a whole. In fact, my niece is a member of the Heen City-State and has recently converted 2/3 of Heen and 1/2 of Tahgalez to the noble Path. I have spoken briefly with their King Scion in the past and I respect him. I know little about Kthon or Vlaanderen. I like the two, but Vlaanderen has torn down the Naraka temple. I can't exactly support that. Of course, it is probably just the specific Count. Regardless, I actually didn't mind Irombrozia until recently, when you declared war on Riombara. It made me sympathize with Riombara a bit more. I cant imagine how horrible it would be if Mhed or Vur Hagin were to secede.

Next point, Riombara does not need Irombrozian permission to travel through Bolkenia, because Bolkenia is rightfully Riombaran territory. End of story.

--Alex 06:37, 6 January 2007 (CET)(Character: Alexius)

If I owned Eno, and Eno seceded, I would seek a fair and equal peace ASAP. Why? Firstly, I believe it is the right of a duke to secede. Secondly, Irombrozian law states that secessions can only be punished if the reasons are, well, unreasonable.

Also, are you trying to say that warMONGERING is all right, but declaring war isn't? Oh, it's all right to poke and prod a man as much as I want, but I can't actually declare war! If I want a war, any guilt there may/may not be is as much on my head as he who actually starts it. Personally, I don't see war as necessarily such a horrible thing, nor do I see being the aggressor in a war as such a horrible thing. Also, your arguement about "harming humanity" is weak. Why? Well, here's why. If you TRULY wish to preserve humanity, if anyone declares war on you, you will surrender immediately and cede all regions to said aggressor realm. Why? Wars take huge amounts of lives, and place heavier than normal financial burdens on peasants. Obviously, as I understand your view of things, wars are never in the benefit of humanity. Unless you mean the moral good, that is to say, the idea that one realm might be morally more upright than another, in which case your arguement is valid. Also, in that case, aggression CAN be validated. Why? Because if my realm is more morally upright than the other one, then I bear the responsibility to spread my realm. One way, your arguement fails to validate any kind of war. The other way, your arguement validates virtually any war.

Considering the level of surety of the relative threat of immorality, well, let us consider this: if someone tells me, "I shall kill you in three days", they bear the means to do it, they have repeatedly voiced this opinion, and shown definite signs of said desire, can you honestly say we lack the necessary surety? If a man walks up to me with a sword, places it one inch from my gut, and he is a man who has tried to kill me in the past, and has, in all that time between, been telling me he plans to kill me, can we honestly say I lack the necessary surety tos trike back? Must I really wait until the sword is through my gut before I attack? That is absolute nonsense! I'm already dead by that time! Similarly, that is the situation Irombrozia was in. Rio's allies were not weakening, and Rio's enemies were quickly falling. Irombrozia was the obvious next target, and Delvin even informed King Marc that we would be the next target in no uncertain terms. In fact, he'd been telling us several times. As had many other Riombarans. Even we met together on the field of battle, the greetings were, "Hello Irombrozians, we're going to kill you after we finish with LdB". Not even a recognition that we, too, have sacrificed. Not even any thanks for help.

If Riombara truly cared at all about making any type of fair negotiation, they would have, firstly, recognized that we are a realm which is, you might say, touchy about our honor. We went to war with Luz de Bia because they harrassed our Queen. We went to war with Riombara because they repeatedly disrespected and threatened us and, for some reason I can't understand, thought we were either incapable of, or unwilling to, strike back.

You make an excellent description of bullyish tactics. Now then, you also seem to have a total disregard for having honor in politics. You advocate RoF being part of the ECA because it is most strategically advantageous. Has it occurred to you that perhaps they believed it wasn't the right thing to do? Executing Marc sent a message to every ruler of a seceded realm in the continent: you are fair game. In fact, it sent that message to more than just seceded rulers, as I know from personal messages. That and many other things, I would venture to say (though it is certainly possible I am in error) probably convinced RoF that, while the CCA might not be totally right, it was certainly better than the ECA.

You say you don't want to bully RoF. Then you define neutrality as, oh, surprise surprise, submission. The way you describe neutrality means they cooperate with you whenever you need them to. It means they submit to your will. Why? Simple; because you have more soldiers than them. Now, RoF closes passage, and your immediate reaction is to start screaming for war. Have you even considered negotiating? No, probably not, bullies don't think of that usually. Vellos 07:05, 6 January 2007 (CET)

Hireshmont, you are a fool. Secession does go against Riombaran law. The law states "Riombara comes first, before any noble's interest, including—and especially—Prime Minister and Dukes". Secedeing is in the interest of the duke and a low blow that hurts Riombara. You contributed, as with our enemies, to hurt our realm in the sneakiest way possible, thus, I hold you lower than even the basest assassins for what you have done.

Furthermore, your argument about wamongering doesn't hold up. Riombara is being assaulted by no less than 3 realms currently, and we're still managing to make progress. It would, perhaps, have been fair fight if Fronen could contribute their aid every 2 weeks to Riombara, but what you are doing now is depriving us of that and attacking us prematurely out of fear. So beause we were supposedly warmongering, on nonexistent evidence, this justifies your picking on us like the opportunistic scum you are? Riombara will accept the assimilation of the duchy of Irombrozia back into the fold soon. That is not a threat by any means, that is a promise. Those who willfully defy Riombaran laws (as you have) and work with the intent of damaging us still further have forgone any merciful verdict they might have been offered. Hence the execution of Marc. We are not forcing you to stay there. We shall move into a part of our realm and reintegrate it as part of our extended civil work project. If the rebels decide to resist, so be it.

Yet another point is that we never had peace with you. We did have a declaration of neutrality to focus on our common enemy that you then decided to break, stacking the odds even more against us, and removing any sympathy we shared for your rebellious reasoning.

We are not bullying RoF. Bullying is defined as forcing someone to do your will through intimidation or physical force. What we had was a good defensive alliance, through which every party to it benefitted, that our friends in the realm who we had defended from Enweil, even though Fwuvoghor was our past city. They themselves aided us in the south. Now they are taking nonesensical action to deprive us of support, frsutrate our allies and generally be a pain. We do not want them to be assaulted. We want them to accept that they are just stirring up the hornets nest and losing friends when they can't afford to. --The1exile 14:20, 6 January 2007 (CET)

Even under that law you quote, secession is still not illegal. Secession of Irombro quite possibly saved Riombara. How? Well, LdB was set to take Irombro within a week or so of our secession. With that added income, and without Irombrozia as a nuisance for them to deal with, I believe Rio would have had a much harder time of it.

Gorch, you were not here when the war began. Everyone in the continent was hawking for war, and Delvin was one of the loudest war-hawks. No, he didn't issue the declaration of war. The beginning of the war is equally the fault of every nation involved, because no nation made any attempt to stop it.

Again, you are wrong. There was a peace treaty between Riombara and Irombrozia. Hence we our surprise attack was delayed by half a day, the officials couldn't handle lowering stances all the way to war in one go. So we were delayed a bit. There was a peace treaty, not just a declaration of neutrality or cease fire. It was a peace treaty. In fact, you will note Rio doesn't have a claim on Bolkenia, because you all surrenderer your claim when the peace treaty was signed, I forget if it was Delvin or Herkan at the time, but that was clear to your PM, that the claim would be lost, yet he did it anyway. Odd, for someone who refuses to recognize Irombrozia as a sovereign nation. Again, more hypocrisy from Riombara.

If RoF was truly your friend, you would not be angry at them now. Friends are able to have their differences without the friendship being hurt. Also, keep in mind, when RoF came south, they aided us too. Dirrik himself led some of his TLs to help defend Irombro from an LdB assault. Perhaps they are now taking "nonsensical" action because they feel intimidated or used. Perhaps if Fronen would pay for the privelige of passing through RoF. Again, I am led to wonder if any of you high and righteous ECAers have even bothered to try negotiating. Also, in doing what they did, perhaps RoF did lose friends. But, they also gained friends. Perhaps more fair and polite ones. Vellos 15:34, 6 January 2007 (CET)

If someone says "I shall kill you in three days" and you were sure of his intent I would say that is equivalent to a declaration of war, albeit on a smaller scale. You in that scenario would have every right to attack the man.

Now again with the bullying. Lets take a look at what you asked "Tell me, where was RoF's advantage in this? (Referring to being a part of the ECA) ". I have told you, they have the largest army on the Continent to protect them from any attack AND help them should they choose to expand northwards or westwards. You didn't ask for a moral motive. King Marc was a traitor and in fact the biggest traitor to the Riombaran Republic. His death was deserved. It is Riombara who has been attacked, and you, eho have gaiend out of this expect Riombara to grin and bear its loss.

I see NO strategic advantage with helping Irombrozia and no moral advantage with siding with them or rather you. The only reason for RoF to side with Irombrozia (note Im not talking about the CCA as a whole) is because of your new Marraige Alliance, which apparently gives RoF reason to discard its older alliance and change their politic stance. I think it is an incredibly stupid move, but then I am not of Fwuvoghor. What do I know?

If RoF were truly our friends they would not attack they would allow us in their city just as we would allow them through if they wished. Just as we allowed the early Qyvaggists free passage through our lands when they went to their new home in Riombara. Perhaps you consider refusing your friend and ally access to an important route noble and amicable. I however believe that is not "working together to improve relations between our nations and our people" as the peace treaty suggests.

Oh and thank you for your compliments. The estimable Prime Minister Enzeru has shown LouisJoesph and I your letter.

--Alex 16:36, 6 January 2007 (CET)(Character: Alexius)

I did not ask what strategic advantage was present for RoF. Nobody is saying this is a strategic advantage, that would be idiocy. But why should we determine our politics based upon strategic advantage? I prefer to base Irombrozia's policy in, you know, doing what's right. If that means Irombrozia is doomed to perish, so be it. We shall die with higher moral ground. Also, keep in mind, the "I shall kill you in three days" scenario was a direct allegory of Riombara. They made threats of that kind (though, it was more like, "after Luz de Bia is defeated" instead of "in three days"). So you would say that is, essentially, a declaration of war? Well then, Irombrozia did no wrong in declaring war. We simply changed the war from RIombara's kind of war which involves hiding behind diplomatic stances, to our kind of war, which involves being honest about how you feel towards other nations.

And joining in the unfair war, picking at the bones you can get. As for your "higher moral ground" this is further nonsense. You are the ones responsible for repeatedly sacking Eno and beyond, and you claim morality? Compare to Riombara, whose only hostile takeover has been on Grekh, a capital.

I do expect Riombara to give us our hereditary lands, yes, you're right. Look, if Rio would just give us a fair peace for ONCE in their existence, the whole thing could be done with. But Riombara has no desire to negotiate, no desire for peace, and no desire to even listen to negotiation. Riombara is hell-bent on destroying it's neighbors, or reducing them to vassal states. You are bullying RoF, intimidating them, by threatening cooperation or destruction. An attempt to vassalize them. SImilarly, Rio demands complete capitulation of Irombrozia. The best offer we've had is relocation elsewhere to an area which would not include Irombro. Then, Rio flooded KoA with their TLs, thus essentially vassalizing KoA. The current war they intend to make result in the vast weakening of LdB to the point of incapability to resist ever again. That is to say, to reduce LdB to a vassal state. This is blatant imperialism! Rio's goal from the beginning (and I know this, for I was in Rio at the time) has been to become the dominating power of southern Beluaterra. It has never been to do what is right, to promote human good, or any such honorable goals. Their goal is conquest and expansionism. The same imperialism that Enweil stands accused of.

You ask for a "fair peace" after attacking us, striking at the very foundations of our realm, and harming our realm repeatedly? And then you refuse to take the offer of relocation? As for LdB, NO we do not want them to be a vassal state. You need to get your brain checked, maybe drill a hole in your skull to release the pressure. the only thing Riombara wants is it's old lands back, which consist of Glongin, Mio Dupaki and Grekh. After that, you will notice you also hold our lands, and so we wish to reintegrate the duchy of Irombro. Everything you said in that statement is stupid and incorrect.

And this is why Irombrozia and some other realms find themselves in a tight spot. Both sides of this war are guilty of the identical crimes (though Enweil's side has yet to murder a ruler). Thus, middle-alliances form, such as the CCA. We aren't allied against Riombara or anything like that. We are allied together for the common good of our nations, whatever that may mean. If Luz de Bia were to attack one of our member states, we would take whatever action we realistically could against Luz de Bia.

Luz de Bia killed how many of your citizens? 12,000?

Also, I'm offended you refer to Retravic and I's marriage as a marriage-alliance. I've known Retravic since my career in Oligarch, it's not a marriage-alliance or political alliance. There is a thing called love, perhaps you've heard of it? It's not my fault I fell in love with a powerful lady. She's one of the few ladies I already happenned to know fairly well. RoF's action was due, not to our alliance, but because the CCA is working to strengthen our bonds together and strengthen all of our nations. RoF decided to make a sacrifice to help a friend, and strengthen the bonds of the CCA.

It didn't help a friend, it directly harmed Riombara. Helping a friend might have consisted of financial aid,. not making it into situation with split loyalties.

You keep saying RoF and Fronen are friends, or were friends. How do you know this? I'm not saying they aren't, but alliances does not always mean friendship. It SHOULD, but it doesn't always in todays corrupt world. If Fronen had chosen to deny travel rights to the early Qyrvaggians, it would have been all right, a different route would have been found. That would have been a perfectly neutral action to deny the early Qyrvaggians passage. Vellos 17:34, 6 January 2007 (CET)