Talk:Caligan Courier/June'06

Could you plese post at every article who wrote it? Because Kamekaze seems to have more serious and indebt informaiton while talles has more gossip stories.

Actually, Kame wrote the first two, i wrote the last one.

Oh look! Copying us again, Talless! Tut, Tut. --The1exile 00:38, 9 June 2006 (CEST)

I would never copy the filth you write Alex. I did it out of respect for my elder.--Twinblade 15:12, 9 June 2006 (CEST)

The information wants to be free yo --Lumberjack 15:49, 9 June 2006 (CEST)

I was referring to the signing each article separately. --The1exile 19:24, 9 June 2006 (CEST)

Was it copywrited?? --Lumberjack 20:29, 9 June 2006 (CEST)

Copyrighting isn't invented yet. And with each separate realm having their own justice system I don't think anyone would enforce it. But you claimed we nicked your layout (We didn't! It was sirions!) I call that idea for Aurum. --The1exile 20:34, 9 June 2006 (CEST)

For the last time, it wasn't your format we used, and anyways I'm working on a new one. --The1exile 00:17, 23 June 2006 (CEST)

Honestly, I don't think anyone would want to use your layout. The formatting is horrible, in my opinion. But that's just my opinion. Oh, and how exactly is this considered an article? And yes, it is "bashing" us *cough*IJARG*cough*. --Ichigo, Kurosaki Family 00:24, 23 June 2006 (CEST)

I'm going to try to say this very clearly and thoroughly once, so that hopefully I will not have to say it again.

1) My paper's layout was inspired, not copied from The Rampant Lion. It was also inspired by some things of the changes the OR paper did to the layout of The Rampant Lion. (it was also inspired by the layout of the news section of my high school paper, of which I was an editor at one point) Looking at the two papers for about ten seconds should be plenty to indicate to anyone that the changes I made to the layout were not insignificant. The widths of the "right hand box" and the main articles page are different. I use sections and subsections, along with a table of contents, for ease of navigation. Borrowing from OR's paper, we created a "Page 2" for the more in-depth articles. My paper also added its own elements. I divided "page two" into sections, like a real newspaper would (News, Features, and Opinions are different sections you'll find in many a newspaper, and I got the idea from my high school newspaper). We also mark each of our stories as such, like a real newspaper would. The latter two are original, so far as I know.

2) "Stealing" the layout doesn't matter. Even the editor of the Rampant Lion says it doesn't matter if I “stole” his layout. Even if I had outright simply copy pasted the layout, it wouldn't matter. What matters is what's inside the layout. I will match the quality of my articles against yours any day of the week. I happen to believe they are more interesting, more clearly and professionally written, and simply better. At least they don't have spelling mistakes left, right, and center. I won't even go into the atrocious grammar. But, harping out about the layout and trying to make a battle of it strikes me as very silly, where you could be talking about, you know, the actual *articles* instead. But considering what I've seen so far of your writing, maybe that's not such a good idea.

3) We cannot "steal" what we openly on our header admit to having borrowed from. The assistance of the Rampant Lion's layout is attributed on our page. I formally request you to redact or withdraw this statement: "The editor of Yssarias new paper, the "Red Star Courier", somewhat thinks alike Alex of the Itorunt Informer in stealing formats. But instead of stealing our format as Alex did, he stole The Rampant Lions. (Fact not Rumor)". This statement is at best an allegation made without any support, and at worst verifiably false.

Aeillien 01:37, 23 June 2006 (CEST)

Talless, according to the IJARG i think we're not allowed to slander... I don't know for sure I could never be arsed to read it...But RSC is not in the IJARG so slander away I say --Lumberjack 09:57, 23 June 2006 (CEST)

Okay I wont retract that statement, but i will reword it. And ill even let stand the many untruths in your paper after i take the time of reading it. But will be on vacations soon, i will be gone five days, my intern will be in charge as her final test. And also, the CC is working on a somewhat new format. It will be more of a Template change and some little add ons so everone knows when the article was written and what type it is. But the format itself will remain. The CC doesnt need fancy colors to attact its readers. Oh, and regardsless of what IJARG says. We ALL aggreed we could insult each other as much as we want anywhere other than our papers.--Twinblade 17:52, 23 June 2006 (CEST)

PROVIDED we give good reasons. Besides, the II has an almost complete new layout. --The1exile 17:54, 23 June 2006 (CEST)

I just realized somthing. The Red Star courier hasnt signed IJARG. Until then, my statement stands.--Twinblade 17:57, 23 June 2006 (CEST)

Twinblade, you really can't read. RSC doesn;'t need to be a member of IJARG, you still can't slander them. it's in Article III. --The1exile 18:02, 23 June 2006 (CEST)

I was uncertain myself if IJARG papers had to respect the terms of the treaty as regards papers that have not signed it. My own reading of the treaty leads me to believe that as it is written, IJARG applies to the articles written by its members period, whether written about non-IJARG signers or not. I was uncertain if that wording was the intention, however, since I wasn't around when the treaty was originally signed/discussed.

Regardless of whether your in violation of IJARG or not, it was my hope you would correct your statements regardless of any treaty you may or may not have signed, simply because they were false.

If my paper has, as you allege, false statements ("and ill even let stand the many untruths in your paper after i take the time of reading it."), point them out, here, or my papers discussion page. I'll be happy to look at them and respond to them, in one way or another. I will either correct them, or try to make convincing arguments as to their veracity, or reword them so that they more clearly fall into the realm of interpretation, rather than statements of fact.

I myself have been debating whether or not to sign IJARG simply because, from what I can see, the treaty does no good. Papers will either write mature articles about another paper, or they wont. They will either have a mature discussion in the talk page, or they won't. IJARG does not seem to change that. It seems to me that signing the treaty would simply encourage some people to play "gotcha" with any editorials I might write in my paper in response to articles written in someone else's paper, and if I point out violations of IJARG, those same parties would happily lawyer away at the meanings of the articles, or change the topic, or, in short, do anything but actually try and abide by the spirit and letter of IJARG. --Aeillien 18:56, 23 June 2006 (CEST)

The idea of IJARG is that all papers should be enforcing it upon the others. Unfortuantely, it ddoesn't happen. It's a set of guidelines, but with relations on the EC it doesn't hold much weight. If Vellos was here perhaps he could revive it but I don't think it will work. --The1exile 19:03, 23 June 2006 (CEST)

I'm not joining the IJARG, period. It's a pointless agreement. "You can't bash or insult other papers, but you can bash and insult other realms at will." It does nothing to prevent, or even discourage, the writing of blatantly biased, insulting, immature articles. Under it's rules, I can say "Perdan sucks!", but I can't say "Caligan Courier Sucks!" Writing newspapers needs to be about more than just bashing other realms. It should be about reporting the news, not about promoting yourself and your realm by tearing others down.

Yes, I understand about writing the news with a bias toward your realm. There's nothing wrong with that, and even to be expected. Unfortunately, too many of the supposed news articles published in several papers have been written for no other purpose than to bash and insult one or more realms or people. There have been a couple very good articles that show bias toward their paper and realm, but are very well written, very well thought out, and fun to read. (Even when they point out how my own realm is losing. :p )

All of these ridiculous arguments, petty bickering, and insult-laden articles are giving the newspapers of the East Island a bad name. It reflects very poorly on all of us. Especially when one of the Wiki editors has to step in and tell us to "cool it, or else".

IMO, we need to all work together to end all of this bickering about who stole what from whom, which realm sucks, and which paper is better than the other. I will be removing The Rampant Lion from the OCPAU in a minute. It is no longer a serious organization, if it ever was one. If anyone is serious about starting an agreement between East Island newspapers that actually means something, has realistic standards to uphold journalistic integrity, and promotes responsible reporting, then drop me a line. Perhaps it's time that we all started working together to remove East island journalism from the cesspit where it has fallen.

--Indirik 20:43, 23 June 2006 (CEST)

(OOC: Just a little harsh there Indirik. Talless is currently in a little fit, its a roleplay ive been playing. Shes just angry due to Alex's sladering in her absense. I havent seen a way where i could roleplay her to a more serious state. In fact, the red star courier is quite a good paper i thought. But i see my RPing effected the OCPAU which i never intended. I ask you to reconsider, and ill remove what you find offensive. *Sigh* Great! How am i gonna pull this one off? Think Robert think! lol.)--Twinblade 21:37, 23 June 2006 (CEST)

It was supposed to be harsh. I don't like seeing where things are headed with the East Island newspapers, and I'm almost ashamed to be a part of what's been happening. I think the OCPAU and IJARG have both outlived their purpose, and have become a hindrance. And, let's face it, 2 of the OCPAU members are gone (Oligarch and Avamar) and Ubent doesn't even have a paper. In order to move past the slanderous and insulting events that have been occuring up the past few months, I think there needs to be a clean break. --Indirik 22:29, 23 June 2006 (CEST)

"The importance of sitting on your ass as shown by Perdan" is my attempt to class up the Informer. It still bashes Perdan, but if you read the article for what it is, you see it is better written than the others I admit I wrote recently. I am afraid my reporting standard may have been brought down by provocation by the CC.

The editor who stepped in is king of Itorunt and has a problem with OOC bickering, not IC, although as he put it this is degenerating into a "bitchfest" and achieving nothing.

Indirik, you make very good points. I will also be withdrawing from the IJARG soon, after discussion with my co-editors. If I may suggest we all make an effort to use language more in context of a middle-ages noble, and write well-written articles with the same purpose as before. I would like to sugest we all adopt a stance of civil ignorance to other papers, making little or no reference to them. For example, I may write about a great victory in which Itorunt attacks Partora (an example) and the forces draw and call it making significant headway to Perdans capital, whereas you may write about the forces of Perdan fighting to the last man and preventing the forces of Itorunt from making it through the gates of Partora. Different viewpoints, written well, about the same battle, can show realms in a better/worse light still without becoming mere abuse. --The1exile 21:41, 23 June 2006 (CEST)

It's not just the bickering. The whole reporting style is insulting. View it from the other side and see if you can understand how other people view what you're writing. I simply don't enjoy reading your paper any more. Who wants to open up a web page and see someone call them "inept", how they "...crushed them. Utterly and totally. In a moment of idiocy...", "pathetically weak", and so, and so forth. Then take a look at how you treated the PMW. "Perdan's Menstrual Whiners". That's not classy. It's degrading and insulting.

On the other hand, I truly enjoyed reading the Red Star Courier's " We are winning: Here's why", and "Successful Takeover in Tokat" articles. They were well thought out pieces with lot's of information. They weren't condescending, insulting, or degrading. It gave reasons beyond "you're incompetent, and we pwned you". I will continue to watch for more articles to be posted there.

The rest of you can continue going forward however you want. I will not continue to head down the path we have been taking. (And yes, I have written some things I'm not proud of, either.) If that means I have to stop reading other papers to avoid the temptation, then I will. I hope it doesn't come to that. I think we can do better. But we need to get together and try something.

--Indirik 22:29, 23 June 2006 (CEST)

(OOC: I would like to point out that last statement WAS OOC. Talless doesn even know yet :D)--Twinblade 23:12, 23 June 2006 (CEST)

---

This war is now over Alex. Im not going to fight with you anymore. I am going to deliever the NEWS to my people. Im tired of giving them more gossip than news. You can call this vitcory, you can call this a draw, it doesnt matter in my eyes. I have interns to train and news to report.--Twinblade 23:25, 23 June 2006 (CEST)

Talless, so far as I know comments, unless specified as otherwise, are OOC. I gather from this latest comments (marked as OOC) that your others are IC, so I will note that your comments in the future might be IC. You might want to mark it that way though, even if that's your usual practice. This entire time, I've been reading your comments as coming from the player. Needless to say, unless I specify otherwise, my comments are OOC.

Indirik, your comments have certaintly earned my respect. And not just because you complemented my paper. <chuckles> Altough your complements are appreciated. I'm glad you've enjoyed my articles, even, or especially, the ones written ay your realm's expense. May our characters continue to meet each other, in this forum or on the field, as honorable foes.

I'm not honestly sure what agreement could be reached to insure a better quality of journalism on the east island, I'm still more or less of the opinion that any agreement will be obeyed by those that would have written good articles anyway and be violated one way or another by those who wouldn't, but I'm willing to discuss it seriously. I'm not sure pretending other papers don't exist is the best course, as Alex suggests, either. This would put people willing to write mature articles in a position where other less willing could slander them at will without their being capable of any response. I like to think, and this is perhaps naive of me, that the simple quality of more mature writing should be enough to perhaps encourage better journalism everywhere.

Thinking further, maybe if we could arrange for some neutral party to give out periodical awards for papers, this would encourage better journalism in order to have the bragging rights. I don't know who such a third party would be or how we would convince them to do what essentially amounts to work, but still.

Alex, I can see from your comments your trying, but Indirik is right that the tone of your paper is sometimes a problem. I honestly haven't looked at too many of your back issues enough to say if your latest article "The importance of etc.." is a step up, but I'll say, in all fairness, that I think you can do better than that. The article before that, by Thray, (The Small Annoyances..), has a good tone overall (I personally dislike the last part about the spanking, I think there are better ways to say the same thing, but still). Anyway, my comments are overlong as it is, so I'll stop here for now. --Aeillien 00:00, 24 June 2006 (CEST)

I'm trying to write it better, without killing whatever RP Alex has as the forever hated jounalitic basher of Perdan. I also liked Thrays piece, but it is written in a diffferent tone, by a character who hasn't had to put up with repeated attacks from the CC and OO. However, you would be interested to know it was thray who also orignally invented the term "Perdans Menstrual Whiners".

If you think the tone of my paper is a problem, I can only say it was brought down by the CC. Kind of a "when you look into the abyss, does the abyss also looks into you?" sort of thing. There was a time, in my first issues, where they would be fairly written, but then the CC and OO pre-emptively declared journalistic war, which was fun for a while.

Frankly, my newspaper was never meant to be read by the other side. The other side brought me into it. It was made in an effort to make anyone in Itorunt more active and interested. As light comic relief, for our realm. forget the other sides, why should they read it? And it achieved that aim quite well, as shown by some of the comments made.

I didn't suggest acting like they didn't exist, I suggest civil ignorance. So no references to the other paper. If I revert to my old version of writing and say "Perdan suck" then Indirik should not immediately write an article saying "Alex of the II says Perdan suck" because, it is simply not aimed at that audience. Aim it to be read by your realm, and save everyone the trouble of moaning here.

But this is getting longer than a controversial post on the D-list (and thats saying something) so I suggest we find another way of discussing it. --The1exile 00:46, 24 June 2006 (CEST)

Email group? IRC maybe?--Aeillien 01:06, 24 June 2006 (CEST)

ooc: I quite enjoy reading this and I'm sure if you contacted Aurum he could give out journalistic awards. --Bishamon Family 01:11, 24 June 2006 (CEST)

Email or IRC would both be good. Probably Email for time differences though. --The1exile 12:10, 24 June 2006 (CEST)

Fine by me, Indirik, you intersted? And do we perfer google groups or yahoo groups? I'm fine with either, altough I'd perfer goggle. --Aeillien 20:50, 24 June 2006 (CEST)

Yeah, I'm in. I run my own mail server, so I can set up an e-mail list tomorrow, if you guys are OK with that. Running your own server has advantages: No ads. :) --Indirik 17:46, 25 June 2006 (CEST)

Sure,thats good. --The1exile 18:40, 25 June 2006 (CEST)

No ads? Even better, and good by me. My e-mail address is on my user info page, should you need it. --Aeillien 20:48, 25 June 2006 (CEST)

Discussion List

I have created an e-mail list to discuss these events and a possible agreement/resolution to them. This list is open to anyone who wants to discuss any of this. You must subscribe to post. To subscribe, send a message to maiser@arcm.com with the following in the message body: SUB BattleReporters <your name>. If you can't get the subscription option to work, send a message to robert@arcm.com and I'll add you to the list. --Indirik 16:25, 26 June 2006 (CEST)