Arcaea/Dining Hall/Ipsosez Conference/II
Roleplay from Virish Arrassum (1 day, 21 hours ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (21 recipients) Ambassador Virish stood after Ambassador Guy sat and began to say.
"Perhaps there should be three positions that hold equal power? I do not know how we would divide this power however."
With that Virish sat back down in his chair.
Sir Virish Arrassum Ambassador of Kindara
Roleplay from Guy du Bas-Tyra (1 day, 21 hours ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (21 recipients) Guy stood again,
"Having three positions of equal power would be as disastrous as having one, as their reaction time would be much slower. Instead, this League should be entirely for deciding rules of war and other things, I believe that our rulers are wise enough to know when their is a problem for the continent, so provisional alliances will work, unless anyone does not trust their lords..."
Guy du Bas-Tyra Count of Erahol, Ambassador of Greater Aenilia
Roleplay from James Blazeral Harker (1 day, 19 hours ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (21 recipients) James sat listening to the various nobles give their speeches, showing a smirk of amusement at the mention of him by Galiard. Waiting until the Kindaran and Aenilian ambassadors paused their constant sit-and-stand, he stood and spoke with his usual calm demeanor.
"I believe we're all in agreement that this body should lay down a set of rules governing civilized warfare. Rape and murder of innocent peasantry should never be allowed. Destruction of civil buildings and food is much the same, though taking the food for your own troops is acceptable. If the peasants take up arms against an invading force, well, they're no longer innocent peasants, and if they come to battle they will be dealt with like any other honorable warrior. Honor will be observed, however, especially in the case of that sort of bravery. How much fortitude must it take to stand up to armed, armored and trained soldiers with nothing but a pitchfork? It amazes me every time.
"On the matter of contention here, I agree with Galiard, for the most part. There should not be a vote by number of duchies, or one Supreme Executor position. That would leave too much of an opening for imperialism. However, I also don't agree the leadership of a coalition should be decided by a vote. By what knowledge would, say, Kindara have to help them lead a fight against Cathay, Luna forbid that should ever be necessary? Leadership should be taken up by the realm with the most to lose, the border realm suffering the casualties and damages. They will be fighting the hardest to survive and to push whatever combined enemy there is back, and they will have the most motivation to lead well and successfully. As well, they should have the most intelligence on our enemy."
With his piece said, he sat again, listening intently to the next speakers for their input.
James Blazeral Harker King of Cathay
Roleplay from Guy du Bas-Tyra (1 day, 19 hours ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (21 recipients) "Honored Lords, it seems that a number of those who have spoken so far are opposed to an alliance, rather seeking a set of rules for civilized warfare, which I think we can also use for those who seek this unity. Instead of the current idea for this league, why not one that will only come together as the league when a nation fails to follow the laws of this Concord? If a nation permits its men and women to act as animals, then the league will draw its collective sword to defend this international law."
Guy du Bas-Tyra Count of Erahol, Ambassador of Greater Aenilia
Roleplay from Lucius Scarlett (1 day, 18 hours ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (21 recipients) "I wouldn't mind being Supreme Executor," Dodd murmured quietly to Galiard, who ignored him. "Do you think it pays well?"
Galiard smiled wryly as King James spoke, and then turned to listen to to the Count of Erahol. Across the room, a slightly younger (though hardly young) man who nonetheless bears a resemblance to Galiard sat some ways to the side of King Jenred of Arcaea; Lucius Scarlett had thus far remained silent, but he rose and cleared his throat. His voice was smooth as velvet, like a bard's, rather than Galiard's gravelly, stentorian tone of authority.
"My noble cousin will forgive me," Lucius said mildly, "Clearly he spent too much of his youth in Lasanar's Republic, with his wishing to vote on everything; but King James' way is the course of wisdom. Better to say an informal agreement among the League's participants that designates the realm in the lead of a particular war. But this brings me to Lord du Bas-Tyra's point."
"As an oath becomes more distant from a man, it becomes less substantial and less likely to be enforced," said the old Knight. "That is to say; if my noble cousin here promises to aid good Ser Dodd, that is a promise seen and witnessed by everyone here. But let us say that he promises not only his aid but the aid of my whole House, which, nominally, he have the power to do. I am legally bound by such an oath, but may have all manner of conflicting obligations and thus find many excuses not to pursue it. Now let us imagine that King Jenred promises Arcaea to a cause; here I am bound to my liege the Duke of Topenah, who is in turn bound to the King, who is bound to the cause -- I am thus three times removed from the actual business. Add the League, in which a man a half a continent away may commit me to a cause, no matter how proper and good it may be, and one must traverse four different ladders to come between the man in the field holding a sword and the man pointing his finger and claiming to be wronged."
Lucius shrugged his shoulders. "This is no different than any of our alliances today, of course. The difficulty is simply in codifying it. I wonder if King Jenred is really proposing something altogether new, or simply a formalization of the alliance which many of us already support? What if we were to write, in lieu of 'alliance between Cathay and Greater Aenilia and others,' 'Alliance of the Feudal League,' and include all the members. It would work much as our alliances work now, with the history, motivations, and expectations of the alliance clearly spelled out in written form. This information is scarce available today, even to the curious. The only difference I see betwixt this and a genuine entity called the Feudal League is that the former is based on diplomatic protocol and treaty and the latter is based on its ability to compel its members -- an ability I should fear it would lose the moment a signatory realm found some half-palatable reason not to follow such a command, which, with all due respect to Your Majesties, seems a not uncommon trait among Sovereigns."
Sir Lucius Scarlett (Knight of Topenah)
Roleplay from Iceberg Slim (1 day, 17 hours ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (21 recipients) Iceberg sat in silence, towards the rear of the assembled dignitaries. As he enjoyed the wine of this distant land, the Earl of Sasrhas listened intently to both the words of wisdom and of madness that spouted forth in these honored chambers.
He knew of the risk in speaking too soon, especially when bound to represent the interests of others. He also knew the risk in taking too long to speak, once the decision has already been made. The only betrayal of his inclination was the slightest nodding with the words of those with whom he agreed, and a miniscule pursing of the lips in disapproval of those with whom he did not.
Until the debate was framed more clearly, he could not tell you who was mad, and who was wise. But he could tell you that the wine was fantastic, Sir Galiard used to dress more impressively, and that this gathering contains more political power than nearly any other in all of his advanced years.
Iceberg Slim Duke of Sasrhas, Ambassador of Ohnar West
Roleplay from Jenred Bedwyr (1 day, 16 hours ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (21 recipients) Jenred stood, a somewhat puzzled look on his face.
"Nobles of the Far East, perhaps I have been somewhat unclear."
He nodded first to Galiard.
"Lord Galiard, my proposed Executor would only have power in times of emergency or when a violation of the agreed upon strictures has occurred. In a time of peace and honour, said Executor would have no power whatsoever...But yes, when called upon, the Executor would have the power to dictate to Kings, in any field relating to the emergency which empowers the Executor. The League would not have any diplomatic stake, and would not supersede or replace any existing alliances, as that is not its purpose. Indeed, the idea is to create a new level of interaction, separate from diplomacy. League members can and undoubtedly will fight each other, and so long as they abide by the strictures we agree upon here, their status as members of the League is immaterial."
He then nodded to Guy.
"Ambassador Guy, indeed, my intent is that the League only takes action when an event has taken place. However, having some experience with attempting to build alliances, guilds, treaties, and hierarchies in the midst of a war, I think it better to establish a system now so that in the event of such an emergency, all are already aware of the plan and can move together without a great deal of chaos."
He shrugged.
"That said, I think King James' suggestion that the mantle of leadership be taken up by the most aggrieved party has merit, so long as we decide on some method of deciding between rival claimants. And, so long as there is a strict timetable set for how long before a vote must be decided upon to call upon the full power of the League, I suppose a vote would be acceptable. I suggest a week, at most, and three days would be better."
"As for the voting...I considered a single vote per realm, but that seems rather fraught with various difficulties, not least of which would be the potential for well-timed secessions to affect voting outcomes. If, for instance, the Dukes of Soliferum had all seceded at the height of that realm's power, when Mosesadelphia was burning and raping across my lands, they would have been able to easily outvote the rest of the island. To an extent, I think that it would be better to grant a vote to every noble, but such numbers fluctuate too frequently to be useful, and are too easily manipulated. I am willing to hear counter-arguments, but one vote per realm seems almost to invite abuse, to me."
He turned finally to Virish.
"Ambassador Virish, at this point I am undecided regarding brutal takeovers in general, and do not think that there is any acceptable justification for the mass murder of unarmed and unresisting peasants. We are nobles: It is our right to command...And our duty to protect. As for specific consequences...It rather depends on the severity of the violation, but perhaps the loss of one region for every day the strictures are violated? I am uncertain."
He lowered himself back into his seat, and took a moment to smile at his daughter and wife before returning his sharp gaze to the rest of the room.
Sir Jenred Bedwyr King of Arcaea
Roleplay from Caim Haerthorne (1 day, 15 hours ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (21 recipients) Whisps of conversations came to his attention in between the speeches made. Though many were concerned about what was happening here, with many nods of agreement to the words of old King Galiard and King James, hundreds more were astounded that this gathering was happening at all. Caim, insisting on standing with his hand idly playing with the pommel of his sword, took his place amongst the Aenilian party, near the table of Duke Rekhyt and Ambassador Guy. His eyes and stance however bespoke a wandering restlessness.
It was a strange thought to realise that his father had fought tooth and nail against every man here who could be now be called a friend. Should he be shamed by the memory of the Haerthorne name?
Sir Caim Haerthorne Captain General of Greater Aenilia, Baron of Ahael
Roleplay from Galiard Scarlett (1 day, 15 hours ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (21 recipients) Galiard interjected from where he sat at the comment regarding the Dukes of Soliferum.
"Your Grace," said the old Scarlett, "I had presumed that membership in this league was to be by invitation only; a newly-seceded Duke, even were such a thing a commonplace affair, would hardly be able to steer the whims of the greater realms; besides which, even if the League were to accept one or two new realms, they would have at least a half-dozen established realms to contend with. Besides which, any voting is imperfect; establish a vote based on the numebr of Duchies and you will have a permanent resentment among the smaller realms. Establish a one-realm, one-vote policy and I suppose you risk the collected realms of the Far East losing their marbles, but in that event, voting irregularities in the Feudal League chambers will be the least of our problems."
Sir Galiard Scarlett (Royal)
Roleplay from Jenred Bedwyr (1 day, 15 hours ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (21 recipients) Jenred shrugged.
"Or resentment among the larger realms, as a dozen nobles wields greater power than seventy."
"As for membership...I had anticipated that League membership would be open and encouraged for all. Otherwise, you run the risk of deciding who is 'worthy' and having this become effectively an alliance as many seem to fear."
Sir Jenred Bedwyr King of Arcaea
Roleplay from Ciann Fraoch (1 day, 15 hours ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (21 recipients) Ciann worked her hand open and closed under the table, feeling the chainmail bite into the bit of flesh around her thumb and wondering why she wore her chainmail to this gathering. She considered it a fine piece of worksmanship, but it had seen hard use and still bore deep scratches from her battles with Cerber's assassins, she could take them out but it was important to remember what power does to a man.
'They should have sent a scholar.' she muttered to herself before realizing Iceberg had yet to utter a word.
Trapped in silence by the twin powers of protocol and self-doubt it slowly dawned on her that at some point she was going to have to speak and her blood ran cold.
'Holy Adghar, guard me from my own foolishness and vanity.' she whispered and straightened her back.
Ciann Fraoch Geire Suil of Arcachon
Roleplay from Virish Arrassum (1 day, 14 hours ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (21 recipients) Virish slowly rose after Jenred was done speaking and calming began to say.
"I must insist that a brutal takeover be allowed in certain circumstances as Kindara currently has no action left except for brutal takeover against Osaliel due to a long and horrid war of attrition against Soliferium. If you say no to pillaging and plundering Kindara will still fully support the League, however we must remember that the world is not built on good ideals alone. Many of us are Military officers or former military officers, tell me how many times have you had to do a brutal takeover due to the fierceness and length of the war alone? I am sure that Pates had a brutal takeover more than once."
On that note Virish sat down just as carefully as he had risen.
(OOC: The game mechanics will force you into a brutal TO if the sympathy level is low enough.)
Sir Virish Arrassum Ambassador of Kindara
Roleplay from Caim Haerthorne (1 day, 13 hours ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (21 recipients) Caim waited for Virish to sit again, then stepped forward, uncrossing his arms and speaking loud and direct to the members of the proceedings.
"In response to King Jenred's last argument, I suggest this: make membership free to all realms except with a clause that a realm's legitimacy must be reviewed by all other members of the League if it is newly seceded and challenged by another. That seems like a fair way to do it. But then the question comes of how far we can interfere in the internal politics of a realm, especially when the secession is signal of a rebellion. At that stage we must have a way of determining, without allowing alliances and personal interests to interrupt the cause of fairness, membership in these special cases. If we look deeper into this we would need to have it already set in stone just how far the League involves itself with the affairs of its member states. We have already had it pointed out by King Jenred that wars will still be fought; baser politics will go on as they always have."
"With that in mind the only real test for whether that nation should be allowed to the League would then be if it were deemed a threat to more than just the sovereignty of one nation. Further votes that are blatantly there to tip the balance of power would threaten the fabric of the Feudal League's legitamacy and thus relations across the continent. The ideals that the new realm espouse might be an abomination to everything that the rest of us hold dear. Yet if it is merely a crisis facing a ruler who has offended his lords ad knights, then even if that conflict erupts to involve a neighbouring kingdom should it not be a matter for normal diplomacy? The League would have to recognise that if the new realm survives it will remain at potential odds with their mother realm in times of need when all realms must be called upon, but as a General asks his soldiers to lay aside their petty conflict for a greater one, then so would the League do the same with realms who despise one another but are needed to fight together."
He paused in his words, looking about him to gauge the reaction of the nobility in the room. There was some sweat running down his spine, sweltering beneath the pressure of both his cloak and a hundred-fold gaze. Despite it he held his position well for Caim was still a proud man in his prime; tall, golden haired and blue eyed.
"Now, the votes of each member have so far been a matter for contention. Having one vote each is not exactly an ideal form, yet if one realm were to dominate every time then the point of the League would be lost. Thus a compromise would be in order. Say, perhaps, if we ordered a heirarchy of votes whereby the the number of votes alloted is in relation to the number of regions of the realm rather than duchies. If we did choose duchies then realms like Arcachon and the new southern nations would lose out, barely able to influence decisions made by the larger realms of Arcaea, Ohnar West, Greater Aenilia and the Principality of Zonasa. If we were to give one vote to everyone and an extra vote for every five regions over their first five, for NeoSartania does only have three regions, then a little more balance would be present in the voting. Of course this is not set in stone but a suggestion to goad your minds into thinking further."
Caim looked down at his hands, one hand resting in the other as he thought on his last point.
"Finally, Ambassador Virish, I am of the opinion that if we are not allowed to consider peasants who have supported armed violence to be combatants subdueable by harsher than normal methods, then we must seek a greater use of treaties and allow realms to admit defeat when they are beaten. This would not be helped if every time a realm is defeated they are to hand over everything beyond reason, but that they co-operate in ensuring that those regions which would be apart of a treaty and are not responsive to their new rulers are handed over."
He made sure that everyone heard his parting words.
"Not every war will be fought against a snake like Conan."
Sir Caim Haerthorne Captain General of Greater Aenilia, Baron of Ahael
Roleplay from Jenred Bedwyr (1 day, 12 hours ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (21 recipients) Jenred waved a hand.
"Existing issues would have to be grandfathered in, Ambassador Virish. And I am not yet ready to condemn all brutal takeovers...Merely undecided."
"Captain General Caim, a voting scheme like that could be workable...The numbers may need tweaking, but I would be agreeable to something of that nature."
Sir Jenred Bedwyr King of Arcaea
Roleplay from Galiard Scarlett (1 day, 5 hours ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (21 recipients) Galiard's expression had grown pensive as the discussions continued. He rose after Caim had finished speaking. "Forgive me," he said, shaking his head, "but the more I hear of this, the poorer its future seems. You would have a free-standing invitation to a full-scale military alliance open to all with a regulated mechanism of resolving all affairs between realms to which all member realms are subject? This will create any number of undesirable situations: the League might have have forced Conan and myself, as equals, to the negotiating table years ago when that was the last place we wanted to be, and had we declined to participate we would have handed an excuse to our allies not to support us. Any realm can seem well and honorable for long enough to gain admittance into something such as this. If this is an entity which can bind its members in any respect, then membership must be a privilege and not a right. Otherwise we are awarding medals to men simply for agreeing not to rape and pillage, as if the virtues of honor and nobility required nothing further."
Galiard clasped his hands behind his back. "As to the matter of size and votes, I hope I do not appear biased, for Cathay has a fair number of Duchies and regions, and I myself have no power there from which to speak. But I can tell you that any system whereupon a large realm receives more influence under the charter of alliance, whether it be based on regions or Duchies -- indeed, General Haerthorne, a vote based on regions is hardly a compromise in that respect -- will knit the end of the Feudal League then and there. No matter their present conduct, large realms are always viewed with skeptcisim and caution by smaller ones, and the only advantage to a small or medium-size realm in joining such a group as this is to feel that their grievances may be heard in a forum of equals. In years past, Lasanar's credibility still had barely-healed wounds from its expansion; and now, Arcaea and Ohnar both have pleasant to-days, but I have not forgotten their bloody yesterdays; I would not hand either realm more influence over the Far East than it already has, and if their Dukes bristle at having to look upon smaller realms as equals, then I wonder what will satisfy them beyond their lordships in the largest and strongest realms in the Far East, that they also wish certainty in their diplomatic endeavors? No, my lords, this cannot be."
Sir Galiard Scarlett (Royal)
Roleplay from Thain Himoura (1 day, 4 hours ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (22 recipients) Thain had kept quiet so far, and sensing a pause, he rose. He no longer cared for social gatherings, but he believed in the cause that Jenred was now fighting for... Not with swords, but with words.
"My peers, Ambassadors and Lords alike,
One vote for duchy is more than fair, it ensures that each city upon this island has its say, and its voice will be heard through the realm's chosen representative in a time of crisis. As for the post of Executor... I don't see its necessity and only see it as a way for realm and alliances to attempt to wrest control of the Far East. In a time of crisis if military action need be taken, three Generals should be appointed to the Supreme War Council of the Far East, and those three would appoint a spokesperson. The three would be equal, but only one would speak for the three to avoid confusion. These men will first need to volunteer, and then be elected to the council, every realm receiving one vote per duchy. The top three candidates will be then appointed.
As for deciding when an emergency condition exists, a 2/3rds majority will be needed, again to prevent abuse. I trust each of you to know what a true emergency is. Daimons, Conan, Tony, the Requiem.... All foes we've come to know in the troubled history of this isle. This is a glorious occasion, the first time every realm has met peacefully to discuss our futures. Let us come to an agreement. Rape and murder is wrong. Deliberate starvation through the destruction of food is wrong. Is a brutal takeover wrong? Yes, if all other options have not been first exhausted.
Furthermore, we should not be so hasty in declaring war against those we deem a threat, or this league will gain a reputation for being a warmongering forum made to bend the island to the will of the powerful. If a realm is deemed outside the guidelines of the League, lesser steps should first be taken to correct the problem, while an investigation is launched. Trade sanctions, trade embargoes, and then finally, war. But at the same time, we cannot hesitate to act swiftly against clear threats. This is not a forum of politics, it is a union of minds seeking the good of all residents of our fair isle."
Thain sat slowly, his white and gold attire a contrast to that of his guards, who wore the black and gold of the King's Guard. Both men stood on either side of them, claymores strapped to their backs, scanning the room. Behind Thain sat a man in quiet prayer, emitting a deadly aura. His face was not visible under his hood, nor were his daggers, under his robes.
Sir Thain Himoura King of C'thonia, Marshal of the Hammer of Thor
Roleplay from Galiard Scarlett (1 day, 4 hours ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (22 recipients) Galiard watched Thain with a neutral expression. "I do not wish to belabor the issue of voting," he said after a moment's silence. "But this seems to me quite hasty. Let us say that every Duchy has a vote. Does the King vote on their behalf? If so, that is not, in fact, giving 'each city a voice,' as you say, but I suggest that is not desirable. A Duke is bound to his King in matters of state and has autonomy only as concerns his Duchy. If every Duke votes directly, then you are left with an awkward situation where the foreign policy of a realm is suddenly in the hands of its Dukes and the Sovereign is little more than a figurehead; this also circumvents the bond of fealty between Duke and Sovereign. But if the Sovereign votes on the Dukes' behalf, then you are simply assigning to the Sovereign a degree of power based on the number of vassals he already has, thus reinforcing his advantage with no guarantee that, simply because each of his Duchies 'has' a vote, that the Duchies in question will have anything at all to do with the voting."
Galiard resumed his seat. "This is certainly a matter for you, my gracious lords, to resolve, and not for an old man; I apologize for having so much to say, but it has ever been my vice. I have seen most every manner of conflict between man and realm on this continent, and the cases in which they were resolved to the satisfaction of the honor of all concerned were those in which the realms had strong alliances based on mutual trust and the ability to work through their differences. This is never a guarantee, even among honorable realms, and I fear that, in attempting to codify a desirable outcome, you will end up depriving the Sovereigns of precisely the flexibility and agility they require to navigate foreign affairs."
"But," Galiard smiled wryly, "if I, who have not the burden of a Crown, am more concerned for this than those of you who do, perhaps I have mis-learned this lesson; or perhaps it is one that every man must learn himself. Thus the end of my wisdom, or my ignorance: do not overreach, my lords, lest you weaken the strong pillars upon which all agree by attempting in haste to build too much upon them."
Sir Galiard Scarlett (Royal)
Roleplay from Selene Octavius (1 day, 3 hours ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (22 recipients) Selene rose to speak, still dressed in black mourning garb.
"Gentlemen, I am the ruler of the smallest realm there is barring Soliferum. Yet I have no objection to a realm's vote being equal to the number of duchies it has. Why should Sartania have a vote of equal strength to that of Ohnar West or Cathay? It would be grossly unfair to pursue a policy of one realm, one vote. Do not forget, in the event of military action being taken it will be the largest realms who supply the most resources because of their size. Should a realm which contributes only a tenth as much have just as strong a say? No.
"When it comes to the position of Executor do not forget that this, if my understanding is correct, would be a position only used to co-ordinate efforts during a League wide endeavour. As such the Executor will have no power other than in times of emergency - something which it should take a super-majority of two thirds of the League to declare. And, with all due respect to King Thain, three leaders cannot be a good thing. It will only lead to indecision in the middle of a crisis. Let us elect one Executor, a High General if you will, but one who will only lead in times of an emergency. With a super-majority required to declare an emergency then there will be no danger of the League becoming a militaristic super-alliance, focusing only on defeating those who oppose it.
"However, in order that we may expedite matters, I suggest that, once everyone has aired their views on the matter, we vote to decide the exact structure of the League with each person holding one vote. Would this be acceptable to you?"
Lady Selene Octavius Prince Bishop of NeoSartania, Ambassador of NeoSartania
