Talk:Hrēdmōnath

If you want to provide an old English version for RP flavor, that's fine. However, you must provide a modern English version. All text in the game must be in English. The players need to be able to understand what's going on. --Indirik (talk), Editor (talk) 13:26, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Of course I will, but only to those that ask it, everyone in Thulsoma I have already sent a modern English translation to, but for foreigners I've made a point of telling them to ask IC to a Priest or something for a translation, not getting one OOC. As it suits Thulsoma perfectly to be all clandestine and use Old English as a pseudo holy language. -- Reston.

I don't think you understood Rob's point: it is not an option. All text in the game must be in English. This is a rule as old as the game itself.--Bannable 20:41, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Bannable is correct. If you want to be all secretive, then form a secret society. Or, keep the text out of the public eye. But if you are going to post text in a public manner that anyone can see it, then you must post it in plain English, and understandable by everyone. That doesn't mean that you have to give away all your secrets. If you want it to be secret, then control the dissemination of that information. But not with archaic/non-English language or cipher-text.

To make sure that I was understanding the policy correctly, I discussed the matter with Tom today, and received the following reply: "It is not a game rule, however it follows directly from the social contract - if you play a game with friends, would you speak in a language some of them can't understand?" and "I don't mind it for titles. Heck, I don't mind it for anything - as long as it adds flavour and doesn't exclude other players. A translation added at the end would solve the issue."

So, anywhere you post your old English for RP flavour, please also post a plain English translation. I will be updating the Rules and Policies page soon with this policy. --Indirik (talk), Editor (talk) 20:59, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Tom already knows I am using old English, as I mentioned it to him in an email when I asked him to fix the accent problem we had. And as I said, we provide translations to whomever asks, it's an entirely RP device for the realm, we aren't excluding anyone for the sake of it, but rather it's in the RP nature of Thulsoma.

Anyone who wants a translation, its preferable that they ask us IC, for RP reasons. --RestonVanim 21:25, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you are allowed to use it, especially for RP flavor in titles. However, anywhere you put it, you must provide a plain English translation. Posting public messages not in English is exclusionary. Like I said: If you don't want people to know it, then don't post it. Please provide a plain English translation of your text wherever you post in a non-plain-English location. --Indirik (talk), Editor (talk) 15:31, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

If I ran a game and needed to transmit a message that only some people would understand, yes, I'd occasionally speak foreign languages with friends (some of them understanding and the others not). I don't see how it's worse than just hiding the contents and not revealing anything, people who *really* want to know can use easily-accessible internet resources (google translate...). Hell, back in the days church used to be in latin, with not so many people understanding so much of it. It's perfectly legit for someone, especially a church, to use obscure languages. Hell, the GMs do it too. Sometimes, people just don't need to know everything right away. -Chénier 05:03, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Using non-English languages IG/IC is not allowed. What RL churches did or not do is irrelevant. (Besides, churches used Latin and other arcane languages specifically to be exclusionary, and preserve their role as the exclusive conduit to god.) (Also, GM characters are, as usual, exceptions to the standard rules.) --Indirik (talk), Editor (talk) 15:31, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Says you. Tom says differently, he says that this isn't a rule, that it derives from the social contact. As there are cases where this would be justified when playing with friends, there are cases where it is justifiable in BM. And as you said yourself, the churches used arcane languages specifically to be exclusionary, what do you think this one's doing? Not everything in BM needs to be an open book to everyone, as long as it's done reasonably and in good faith, the mere act of speaking in another language is not a violation of the social contract and therefore isn't against the rules. This is just another example of people over-zealously interpreting messages which aren't in the list of rules as being some severe crime. -Chénier 15:48, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

"...and doesn't exclude other players. A translation added at the end would solve the issue." I think this is pretty clear: Provide a translation. No one says you have to give away all your secrets. But if you're talking in public, then speak in a language that everyone can understand. If you want to be mysterious, then put in hints about how if you want to know the inner secrets, then ask a priest. If you want to keep secrets, then keep them secret by not posting them in public. No one calims this is a "severe crime". And the resolution is simple, quick, and far from onerous. --Indirik (talk), Editor (talk) 12:53, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

"If I ran a game and needed to transmit a message that only some people would understand, yes, I'd occasionally speak foreign languages with friends (some of them understanding and the others not). I don't see how it's worse than just hiding the contents and not revealing anything,"
And everyone who didn't speak that language would consider it rude. I almost got into a fist fight with a couple of my friends who were using Spanish to strategize in Monopoly while the rest of us didn't speak it. Its just not good gamesmanship. You are also missing the most important point here;
"as long as it adds flavour and doesn't exclude other players. A translation added at the end would solve the issue."
Tom has already overruled you on the exclusion point and stated that a translation should be added. IMO that is end of argument. --Athins 16:59, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

No, you are missing the point. I argued it was justifiable in *some* cases, not in *all* cases. If I play a Diplomacy game with public negotiations only and decide to deal with someone in another language to set up secret deals, then that's not fair play. However, if I'm a dungeon master in a game of D&D I run, and there's a goblin speaking and it happens that only me and the player of the character who decided to learn to speak goblin know some foreign language, then I'm going to use it to send the message across, since the others aren't meant to understand. There are some reasons to be exclusive, sometimes, and saying "if you want to be secret then just shut up", that's not providing for very interesting developments. If it's just for RP flavour, though, then yes, provide a translation below so all can enjoy. -Chénier 02:11, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

All irrelevant. "House rules" are English. Post in English, or don't post. How hard is this to understand? --Indirik (talk), Editor (talk) 12:53, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Indirik, IT IS English, Old English to be precise, and there is a very good reason why I am using it, to be perfectly honest, if a few members not involved in Hredmonath, or Thulsoma object I don't care as it is not for them, and to get translations all you have to do is ask, preferably In Character. There are multiple other realms using languages that are not English, Fronen for example, so I do not see why so many people are complaining about me using original English, as opposed to complaining to those who don't use English at all. RestonVanim 22:59, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

"Old English" != "English. If you know of other realms not using English, then please inform them of the same thing: Plain English should be provided, at least as a footnote translation. It's fine to use other things as flavor text or for RP, but you must provide plain English translations. And I have asked. Repeatedly. I'll ask again: Please provide a full translation, in plain, modern English, in all locations where you use it in public locations. If you want to use it in some private locations, such as on your internal boards, I don't really care. But if you post it in public, provide plain English translations. --Indirik (talk), Editor (talk) 14:11, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

The language "rule" is a consequence of the Fair play requirement of the social contract. It's not an inalienable right to be able to understand everything that is published somewhere on BM. This new trend to make a rule for everything is hurting the enjoyability of the game. Rules are there to make sure the game remains fun, not to dictate every little thing everyone does. -Chénier 00:09, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

All players are required to abide by the terms of the Social Contract. If some requirement is a derivative of the Social Contract, then all players are required to conform to it. No one is asking them to reveal any private information, or any secrets of their religion. It's quite simple: Post it in public? Provide it in English. Period. --Indirik (talk), Editor (talk) 14:11, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

That is your creative interpretation of the social contract, Indirik, that's not what's written in the social contract. I can barely understand a word in that text, but you know what, I've ravished by that. Having everything handed over on a silver plate is not fun. The guy already said he provides translations upon request. And it's not as if old english was some modern language used by an ooc clan to exclude others, it serves its purpose wonderfully. To have a plain english translation below kills all the awe and wounder, and discourages everyone from even bothering to contact the religious people to ask. -Chénier 01:56, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Your failure of reading comprehension isn't my problem. "...it follows directly from the social contract - if you play a game with friends, would you speak in a language some of them can't understand?" and "... A translation added at the end would solve the issue." --Indirik (talk), Editor (talk) 03:11, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Just to make it quite clear for Mr Reading Comprehension Failure: it's not Indirik's creative interpretation of the Social Contract. It's Tom's creative interpretation of the Social Contract. You remember Tom, right, Dominic? The guy who runs the game, and whose word is absolute law? --Anaris 15:29, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Since this is causing so much controversy (since, to be frank, everyone seems to be just in the mood for it), I'd suggest just going with a shorter version with a translation for those to be introduced to the religion, with key phrases in words in the conversation of the religion being kept to old English, thus with a far better chance for those with not a clue to get some idea. Kinda like how latin is often used. To be honest I adore the fact you've gone through the effort and actually know Old English. --Aerywyn 07:56, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

And another thing...

Just on another matter, aside from all that above, I do think it's quite impressive that someone actually translated this into Old English --Revan 06:04, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

In Thulsoma we have translated the Hredmonath stuff into Old English, and also our border posts, but not things like the realm summary for obvious reasons. In response to the mass of controversy on this, I'd like to say, the complaints of people not in Thulsoma, or not in the religion have no weight, as it is done for the people in Thulsoma and Hredmonath, though ultimately it does present a very good outer image to "foreigners" and a lot of roleplay opportunities, those quoting the Social Contract as a reason not to do it, are just pedanting as a way to ruin what we are doing here. As Chenier said, it creates a great air of mystique and wonder to outsiders and encourages people to RP or inquire to the religion, and to those of us in Hredmonath, it is like our pseudo holy language, akin to like how Latin used to be in Christianity, which was the main reason for choosing to use old English. Also, as a note in on Thulsoman culture, we speak normal English to foreigners out of courtesy and respect, but when it comes to private things such as our religion, or border posts, we revert to "our language" because it is meant to be by us and understood by us, it isn't there for the sake of "foreigners" and if they want to understand it, they have to ask. Thulsoma has become pretty insualr and introverted like that. RestonVanim 13:58, 7 August 2010 (UTC)