Talk:Atamaran Advocate/Issue 1

Morale Management

"ASI decided to come and gain the region of Sullenport, Rogeshore and Byblack while we were defending Stargard at the very walls. You can read more about this in the vault of knowledge." This is cheap propaganda. The regions of Byblack+Rogeshore were taken by RedSpan when ASI + Abington fought a war...ASI gained these regions from Tara LONG AGO. ASI agreed to release Sullenport to RedSpan as a gift before the Abby+ASI war started as an INVESTMENT in future relations...at which point RedSpan got greedy and decided that she would take a few regions from ASI (Rogeshore+Byblack) when she saw an opportunity to strike an ASI that was ALREADY fighting a juggernaut: Abington. After the Abby+ASI war ended, ASI got the regions back diplomatically...without spilling a SINGLE drop of RedSpan, with the condition, that ASI would return the lands after we got the Islands back...which we later did, and as promised, we returned Byblack AND Sullenport. Rogeshore was never in ANY agreement, and prior Kings ALL signed complete border recognitions as they were with ASI at the time. In fact, Abington swore to respect ASI's regions as her own when the war ended, and those said regions INCLUDED Rogeshore. This is a silly attack on RedSpan's part, and if it isn't recalled, relations will probably be extraordinarily soured. We have given RedSpan SEVERAL chances to play diplomatically in the past, and if we get burned AGAIN this time, God knows that I'll be personally fed up with RedSpan's contant political shennanigins. Ungrateful goats never had to fight for her lands...either ASI or Abington did the fighting. Maybe that is why they don't respect treaties or diplomacy...but they had better learn to quickly before others get pissed off at this bull and deliver a good dose of commupence. Doc's Revenge

It was nice, wasn't it - getting back those islands - based on the fighting of Darka, Minas Ithil, Talerium? Sure, go ahead and pat yourself on the back for "fighting for your lands" by manipulating others. Perhaps you could pay Darka some more to give Redspan their "commupence." That way ASI, as usual, doesn't have to get their gloves dirty. Isn't that the way of things, O former king? House Olik 19:07, 7 March 2007 (CET)

Actually, the RedSpanners themselves fought extremely hard during the Darka invasion, despite being severely outnumbered. Thus being vastly outnumbered, they weren't victorious alone... But managed to cause heavy causualties to the invaders before Abington backup arrived. To the best of my knowledge, RedSpan only wants Rogeshore back to... 1)Restore "Da Highway". Going AROUND Rogeshore is a huge pain, and a complete waste of time (OOC: hours/turns). 2) Prevent more attacks on our priests by followers of ASI's faith. Last I checked, ASI had not chosen a correspondant for the paper, and we happily welcome anyone who would wish to do so. Also, the quote you addressed was just that, a quote, and does not reflect the views of the paper. -- Fade

When you put quotes in your article, the normal connotation is that the quotes are there to support your point of view. If you don't agree with the quote, you normally provide some form of refutation of it, or some other way to indicate that it is an independent view. --Indirik 20:08, 7 March 2007 (CET)

This mostly applies if the article itself is written as an argument. I perceived this article to be an account of dissent to the war within Redspan and the pro-war reaction. Min's statements are refutation enough to that quote for, truly, many indeed see this as an opportunistic and acquisitive gesture from Redspan. The article itself does very little to champion one view or the other. I hope you don't mind me putting in my two cents here, but I have always believed accusations of bias tend to be thrown about a bit too carelessly. - Rhys W.

Thank you, Rhys =) That was very appreciated, I try hard, and when I mess up, I am very open to constructive criticism. --Fade 05:25, 8 March 2007 (CET)

Perhaps we should explore how the quotes were included and whether there is a better way to do it that will indicate they are not the views of the paper. (I would suggest trying not to offend anyone, but having read a lot of talk pages here, I don't think that's remotely possible.) --Habap 14:24, 8 March 2007 (CET)

"Da Goat vs The Serpænt" + Morale Management

I think there is a clear RedSpan bias in these two articles. Praising the efforts of RedSpaniard priests, implying that Magna Serpaensism is an aggressive and hostile faith and then including King Tony's propaganda. Are we supposed to be reporting in favour of our home realms or providing a neutral point of view here? Or am I as the ASI reporter supposed to produce counter articles or something? Cos if that's the way then we might as well just go back to our realm papers... --Revan 18:48, 7 March 2007 (CET)

Agreed. Propaganda does not belong here. If you feel the need to write ill about your enemy, do it in your realms' papers. The Atamaran Advocate is supposed to a be a news source, not a source of propaganda. It serves no purpose if its just another forum for individuals to praise their own realms while badmouthing others. -Francisco Pizarro 19:17, 7 March 2007 (CET)

Could you please point to what "Propaganda" you speak of? =/ Maybe I'm just blind, but I didn't see anywhere that someone was called out being bad. I praised some people I saw do some hard work, and if I had seen anyone else do it, I would praise them too. However, what I can personally observe is limited, THUS why we have outer-realm writers, who can do their own articles, and praise the ones THEY can observe. I'm not omnipresent (unfortunately... That'd be mad cool). --Fade 05:27, 8 March 2007 (CET)

I think an island-wide paper is an excellent idea. If I was more involved with Atamara, I'd definitely write some articles for Darka. However, I think it is important that articles are as impartial and factual as possible. You guys have a great chance to start one of the first international newspapers in the game. The success of the paper, though, depends on maintaining the journalistic integrity. --Indirik 20:16, 7 March 2007 (CET)

Most of the "propaganda" was in quotes. Nothing is wrong with "praise" (hell, if they did a good job, they did a good job, no matter who they're with)., and the hostilities were hostilities, no matter how you spin them. Not once, however, were they called out as evil. Re-read them again, give a good look over. Since those articles deal more or less SOLELY with ONE realms events, it may seem biased: But when it's inter-realm, or religion, an air of bias cannot be completely shaken, but the best possible job to stay objective. If after reading it again, CAREFULLY, you still think there is a strong bias, let me know, and I'll try to re-word it to fix that. I've already revised them a bit to try and quell any hints of it I see. I assure you, the goal IS to be objective... but it's still a new project, and the wrinkles are being ironed out. Let me restate: Praise in a paper is fine, if the individual praised is worthy of it, regardless or realm or creed. Bashing in any form is not. I personally go through lengths to keep bashing out, so if you think you see a hint of it, please let me know. (OOC: Any HUGE issues should be e-mailed to me at bluehyuu@gmail.com, where I'll catch them quickly, and be able to address the issues faster.) (OOC again: So I reworded the Goat vs Serpent article for hints I found of some bias, but I can't find anything wrong with Morale Management, as it is an article based solely on a realm's internal conflict. I tried to present quotes from both sides, and called neither side right nor wrong). --Fade 05:16, 8 March 2007 (CET)

Sorry, my comments were not intended to imply bias in the articles, merely a generic statement. I'm not involved enough in Atamaran politics, especially in the Redspan/ASI regions, to understand much of the issues. I'm only adding my voice to the opinion that it is important to avoid bias in reporting. --Indirik 16:45, 8 March 2007 (CET)

War in the North

Excellently written =) I personally like the way you linked it to a common event in foreign realms, allowing more people to make a more personal connection. Bravo. --Fade 05:32, 8 March 2007 (CET)

My pleasure. It is truly a pleasure to be able to write for a newspaper which aspires to go above the factional lines drawn in the sand. Vellos 06:21, 8 March 2007 (CET)

My praise sent to your way Sir Vellos, along with a basket of the finest fruits of Darka. I poked around in your article and put some links to various references, as well as checked some of the spelling. According to the ruler of Minas Ithil, the correct adjective is: "Ithillians". --Jezralhm 10:20, 8 March 2007 (CET)

A thought on impartiality and journalism

OOC - I of course don't mean to be offending to anyone here, but that there is a lot of direct implantation of 20th century western values in journalism, such as the idea of being impartial, journalistically integral, unbiased - "fair and balanced" in other words - in a medieval context. I mean, the idea that we have newspapers of any kind is already a bit of a leap, but when we start holding them to international journalistic expectations of today it seems a bit off to me. I'm just saying a lot of folks are reading these in an OOC manner, judging the papers by standards their characters wouldn't have any basis of. I guess I'm just about expecting live broadcasting, on-the-spot reporting with news anchors and AP press releases to be introduced soon and its a tad overwhelming from a RP context. That and journalistic integrity is something of a chimera in real life anyway, and aiming for it in the context of the game is kinda missing out on the fun.House Olik 07:03, 8 March 2007 (CET)

OOC- I fully understand your concerns, but looking at the nobles who openly volunteer to do these papers, these are the characters who would be the most likely to pull something like this (MOST of them tend to be somewhat reserved, and calculating. True, patriots for their realm, but able to view the other realms with respect). Benny is probably the biggest exception to this rule, being a hot-head and quick to hold grudges, but he considers himself a professional when it comes to his journalism. You're right - Newspapers shouldn't, technically, exist. In this time period, I doubt the printing press should even have become a reality yet. The fact remains, Battle Master isn't a strict medieval game... nor is it set on Earth, for that matter. Medieval BM might then, thus, have such ideas and papers... But I digress... --Fade 07:38, 8 March 2007 (CET)

Well yeah you do digress, because its a slippery slope. I'm not saying there should be no newspapers or that BM should be absolutely accurate... I just think focusing so obviously on 20th century journalism as some sort of value is silly. There are NO professional journalists in the game. Referring to BM's breakaways from historical accuracy is just an excuse for introducing anachronisms. Yeah there are newspapers, that doesn't mean we should introduce the Associated Press, or the United Nations.House Olik 17:39, 8 March 2007 (CET)

OOC- I don't believe there could be another way an internationally run paper could operate. If it was a free for all, then nobles would have a field day writing offensive articles degrading rulers, generals, judges and even fellow writers. In any case, if you leave the factual reporting here, it would give realm based newspapers so much more room to release propaganda! --Jezralhm 10:20, 8 March 2007 (CET)

I have to agree that if it is to be an international newspaper, it has to strive for impartiality.

If we want to historically correct, we shouldn't have any newspapers and characters shouldn't be able to speak to each other unless they are within hearing distance. I mean, it is totally unrealistic for someone in Rogeshore to write something that someone in Stargard reads 5 seconds later. If we want it to be historically correct, messages should take days. Oh, and everyone should stop showering, cooking food in microwaves or watching videos on YouTube. ;-) --Habap 14:23, 8 March 2007 (CET)

Yeah, see above. Hey, BM is not historically accurate 100%, so let's make it inaccurate 100%? Its not historically accurate, so let's introduce the M1Abrahms tank, that'll be loads of fun and should be no problem to anyone yes?House Olik 17:39, 8 March 2007 (CET)

The idea of an international newspaper is to provide a more accurate accounting of evens. Look at it as a way for future players to look back on and get a multinational account of what happened without all the blatant lies and propaganda that inhabit individual realm newspapers. If this was a place where anyone could write whatever biased opinions they wanted, then why bother? We already have that with individual realm newspapers. This combined effort gives us an opportunity to have a newspaper where we can see the island from the viewpoint of realms all over the island. Why waste this chance by turning it into yet another avenue for the same people to spin all the same tired propaganda they already post in their individual realm newspapers? --Indirik 16:49, 8 March 2007 (CET)

So if its written for PLAYERS it should be an OOC newspaper. House Olik 17:39, 8 March 2007 (CET)