Arcaea/Dining Hall/Ipsosez Conference/III

Roleplay from Dormondt Lankmere (1 day, 1 hour ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (22 recipients) Dormondt heard the call to vote, and seeing a pause, he stood, making eye contact with all present before continuing...

Lords and Royals, respected Nobles, I see no reason to belabor the point of the tow-thirds vote to enact a state of emergency as I feel that this logic is sound. If the concern is one of the Executor being able to manuver in such a way as to gain power in times where it is undesired, or even detrimental, than perhaps a list of people eledgable for the post should be a matter of public record, and the decision should be made upon the enactment of the state of emergency itself.

This would mean that the process of enacting such a state would comprise of two actions: 1. Declaring if the voter believes that a state of emergency indeed exists, and if they so choose, 2. Who their pick for Executor would be.

In my mind, this would provide for the majority needed to declare such a state as well to provide a mechanism to allow for either those who believe that such a state is mandated to provide a strong military mind or for those who disagree with the state of emergency to vote in one who would temper the panic with a measured response.

He sat once more, looking to the assembled and gauging their response.

Dormondt Lankmere (Priest of Adgharhinism)

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Roleplay from Ciann Fraoch (1 day, 1 hour ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (22 recipients) Almost jumping to her feet once his Holiness finished speaking Ciann could barely contain herself.

"MiLords, there nee also be a provision for those whom are acting outside of the allowances of their state and are punished therein. Elsewise rulers, though not MiLords of course, might be tempted to engage in ill acts and convince a noble of a rival state to betray the treaty and then seek redress. Those who must inforce the laws of the lands should be able to agree on a penalty for wayward nobles so none may be beyond the hand of justice, as black-hearted men care nothing for their own land and scheme and bring doom to all those around." Beathlessly, her words tumbling out, she continued, "This land will always breed another Viracocha."

"As for votes, why not one vote for every 5000 CS of military strength, or however it is that scribes count it, that way those states who contribute the most will have the greatest say. As a last note, we do not ban rape merely to protect the peasant, but also the souls of our soldiers whom we are pledged to lead in just and honourable warfare. Cruel acts do not only harm the oppressed, but the oppresser as well."

"Thank you MiLords."

Uneasy at the premise of standing any longer she clanged down on her seat and looked over to her Guardian, praying she did not disappoint his Holiness.

Ciann Fraoch Geire Suil of Arcachon

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Roleplay from Caim Haerthorne (1 day, 1 hour ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (23 recipients) "It seems we are in several places at once, both in regards to the voting system and the purpose of the League, as well as within the issues themselves." A smile escaped his lips as he surveyed the crowd, and from the glimmer of humour in his eyes when directed at King Jenred the two of them might feel like it was an aside between friends.

"We should probably remember that we have only a little time to form a firm opinion on the Feudal League and hopefully come to some kind of consensus. Aenil know what it might mean if we all end up storming away from this. Regardless, His Grace Galiard Scarlett is right to an extent. Diplomacy needs to be flexible so that Kings and Queens can act freely where it is best that they do so. I'll leave the matter of who is given the privelage to joining the League to be decided by others, though I agree that membership should not simply be handed out even if we try to avoid forming a simple diplomatic bloc to use against those outside of it."

Caim crossed his arms, thinking on the last point for a few seconds.

"I... suggested the votes based on an amount of land divisible by another amount because it came to a more even number than if we based voting rights off of duchies. Whilst going with duchies may be alright in the end, this should only be for certain things. Say for the inclusion of new realms we have a vote of one to each realm and a simple majority, whilst on the side we have councils with positions whose responsibility is not only to give advice but to balance out the threat of any abuse of power. Ultimately, however, when it has come to war itself I can say that in the most recent war against Soliferum that the Generals of our respective realms have been most communicative. I suggest forms that we can use, but we could merely reinforce the importance of our current military and diplomatic heirarchy whilst allowing a greater scope for partaking in the design of grand strategy to our military leaders."

The words from his mouth tracing their way back to his mind did not find a happy welcome. Caim shook his head a little at just how many different ideas were held in store for the League.

Sir Caim Haerthorne Captain General of Greater Aenilia, Baron of Ahael

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Roleplay from Virish Arrassum (22 hours, 55 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (23 recipients) Virish stood once again and began to say.

"Kindara supports a two thirds super majority on all voting and would not object to voting based on the number of Duchies. Our ally NeoSartania speaks wise words when they say that the bigger the realm the more they can help and the larger the realm the more they must commit to helping in any situation."

Virish sat back down after his brief speech.

Sir Virish Arrassum Ambassador of Kindara

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Roleplay from James Blazeral Harker (22 hours, 52 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (23 recipients) James sat listening, quietly absorbing everything said with arms folded and unconsciously rubbing his left wrist. He missed the feel of the smooth metal that had adorned it and truly, most of him for the past....Luna, however long it had taken against Soliferum. He could hardly remember a day in the past year he hadn't been fully armed and armored. However, he had decided to eschew that in favor of simpler, comfortable clothing for this event. How would it look, being visibly armed at a peace meeting? He hadn't even a bodyguard in sight, only his Captain standing amongst the crowd. He longed for the reassuring weight of his sword at his side. It was almost like a security blanket now.

Regardless, he listened, then stood "I fear we're getting too bogged down in details and voting system suggestions right now. We can handle the mechanics with time, instead of struggling to force a system into place now and risking damaging the goodwill that has managed this near-miraculous gathering. If need be, we can form a guild to facilitate communication after this meeting has ended.

"For now, we should focus on what we want to accomplish with this League. So far we have some merely wanting it to regulate warfare, some treating it as an island-wide alliance, and there's some legitimate fears an Executor could abuse their powers to bring further harm to the island. Let's concern ourselves with this, and not whether Arcaea or Cathay should get an extra three votes because per capita we have 2.5 more peasants, et cetera" He shook his head then, a little exasperated "Otherwise, if we keep on this tangent, I fear our elder members like Sir Scarlett may lapse into a nap, and we would lose out on his keen wisdom and expansive history" He casts a quick glance and grin Galiard's way, then nods to the assembly

"Basically, let's get back on track here. For a start: What, precisely, would an Executor or High Supreme General or whatever over-the-top title we choose to give him be empowered to do? And what recourse would Rulers have in the event an Executor initiated an action that was.....well....Blatantly not in their best interests?"

James Blazeral Harker King of Cathay

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Roleplay from Jenred Bedwyr (21 hours, 56 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (23 recipients) Jenred shook his head in some puzzlement.

"I remain confused...At no point did I suggest that this should be any kind of alliance. The only reasons the League would have been invoked against Conan is because he was supporting Tony's claims to godhood and violating the codes we are drawing up. No one would have forced you to negotiate with Conan, Lord Galiard. I have no intention of relinquishing my sovereignty in Arcaea to any, and the League would not be marching against anything less than a great and apparent evil. As an experienced diplomat, surely you recall how exceedingly difficult it can be to convince half the island that something is a great threat. And if we have the entire island participating in this League, then it becomes dramatically less likely that it will be abused for political ends, as competing factions will ensure that no single alliance will be allowed to cover their war with the mantle of the League. Yes, it would be possible if over half of the island were joined with a unity of purpose and lost to all honour...But if that ever occurs, then we have far larger problems."

Jenred then nodded at James.

"Agreed, a guild will need to be established regardless for communication purposes, and the discussion can be extended beyond this conference if need be. As for what the Executor would be able to do...I see the position as General to the Generals of the League, providing leadership to them in much the way that a General of a realm provides leadership to the Marshals. I envisioned the Executor being able to declare a League action, subject to oversight as I outlined, but I am willing to accept a vote first on the matter if absolutely necessary. The position is a military one, and merely serves to ensure that a decision is made efficiently, instead of half a dozen or more Generals arguing over the best course that results in nothing being done."

"And, for what could be done if an Executor abused their authority...Again, replacing them should be a majority vote, however we determine voting. I am still in favour of duchy voting, with each realm deciding how they wish to handle the matter. If we follow that path, I myself will tell my Dukes to either vote themselves or vest their votes in a proxy. It is certainly possible that they will vest their votes in me, but will not be required."

Jenred nodded at Ciann and Thain.

"Certainly, invoking a League war would not be the first action. If a lone noble acted, then the realm would be asked to deal with said noble themselves, with punishment according to the crime. Trade embargoes, closed borders, and various other lesser actions would certainly be used for isolated violations. But, if a realm's policy is to violate our standards, then that policy must be changed."

"I am worried about a two thirds vote, however. Such a requirement would make it easy for a single alliance to block any actions against themselves, regardless of how we structure the voting."

Sir Jenred Bedwyr King of Arcaea

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Roleplay from Dormondt Lankmere (21 hours, 21 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (23 recipients) I am not so certain that this is a bad think King Jenred.

I, for one, would only see the involvement in this League in drastic circumstances, aside from any rules of general engagement, so a two-thirds vote, which would inhibit petty political actions, would not present a barrier in the situations in which the League's involvement would be crucial, such as during a continent-wide invasion.

Dormondt Lankmere (Priest of Adgharhinism)

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Letter from Virish Arrassum (20 hours, 24 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (23 recipients) Virish stood, just as fragile as the last time from fresh wounds, and began to speak on behalf of his realm once more.

"Your Highness King Jenred, I truly must insist on a two thirds vote because if two thirds of us dont want whatever we are voting on then we should not be doing whatever that vote was about regardless of if its only because of an alliance. This League should do the will of the mass majority even if that is just because of alliance."

Virish sat once again.

Sir Virish Arrassum Ambassador of Kindara

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Roleplay from Galiard Scarlett (20 hours ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (23 recipients) "Your Majesty." Galiard got to his feet to at least one groan, though Ser Dodd looked innocent. "I hope you will pardon the confusion: is it an alliance, is it not; on the one hand you say it is not and diminish the influence it might have, but on the other, should this nebulous definition of an 'emergency' arise, whosoever commands these votes and the Executor should find himself in quite an influential position. I cannot help but wonder what problem it is you are trying to solve: in times of dire emergency in which there is a clear villain, such as a Daemon invasion, even left to our own, imperfect diplomacy, we would unite without the assistance of the Feudal League, and designate a General-in-Command easily enough. Indeed I well recall the difficulty of raising armies against Antoza, but had we the Feudal League then, I do not think it would have helped -- for I cannot imagine any of the Sovereigns with whom I dealt in those days desiring not to assist us, but then finding themselves compelled to do so by the Feudal League, and then doing it."

"I am not in opposition to the premise for this conference, my lords, not that it would deprive you of much sleep if I were; rather I think that this proposition is so potentially weighty that I should want to see a formal treaty, with careful details on precisely the purpose for the League, under what conditions it might be invoked, and the obligations of the signatory realms in that case. For much of the island's conflicts have not been these drastic, polar affairs in which one side is right and one clearly wrong, even if that is how history remembers them -- of course it would be so, for I am alive to tell the story of Corey and Antoza, and Corey is not! Indeed I am surprised that Conan stumbled in such a manner as to allow himself to be painted thusly, for his past strength came from his opportunism in appearing to be the good guy, the underdog. Even Antoza's mad King Corey would not qualify as such a blatant villain -- it took all my effort to get him acknowledged as such, and that, too, would be no different under this Feudal League. I have found myself in the past wishing for more detailed treaties, to be sure, but never have I found myself thinking 'if only I could command, rather than ask, a fellow ruler to do as I wished,' for it is my experience that, no matter how many treaties you have, that is all anyone here may ever do.

Galiard looked around the room with a detached smile. "But you all seem very eager to make history, and I should not wish to deprive you of that opportunity, nor to nag you for the remainder of this conference with my skepticism. My recommendation, for what it's worth, is that you limit your council today to only the broad strokes: agree on the problems you are trying to solve and the best sort of tools you feel are suited to solve them. Then establish the guild you speak of -- perhaps right here, in Ipsosez, or else nearby -- and then at least two of you have your diplomats pen the details as you would wish them, and haggle over the particulars. For if this to happen, whether a vote requires 1/2 or 2/3 hardly needs every Sovereign of the Far East in one room."

Sir Galiard Scarlett (Royal)

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Roleplay from Guy du Bas-Tyra (18 hours, 30 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (23 recipients) Guy rose, and slowly turned his gaze across the assembly of nobles, and then began to speak,

"I agree with Lord Galiard, we will know when a crisis strikes, so a constant alliance would not be necessary. Furthermore, action raises men and women to positions which they would not have reached in peacetime, so this League would cause stagnation throughout the realm if used as a military powerhouse. We should agree on common law, and manners of enforcing it, so that those who cannot fight are protected."

Guy du Bas-Tyra Count of Erahol, Ambassador of Greater Aenilia

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Roleplay from Jenred Bedwyr (18 hours, 16 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (23 recipients) Jenred grinned wryly at Galiard.

"We would select a General-in-Command easily enough, you say? I find that...Amusing. Even when every participating realm in the fight against Soliferum agreed that we needed one paramount General to command our forces, agreeing upon one and agreeing to give one the necessary authority never truly happened. I know, as I tried for literal years to arrange such."

"Again, this is not an alliance. This is an agreement between nobles that some behaviour will not be tolerated, whether it is performed by allies or not. The idea is not to involve the League in every conflict, as indeed, the vast majority of the wars fought on this island are murky affairs."

Jenred's face grew hard.

"But there have been instances of great evil. A man declared himself a god, and all who gainsayed him were threatened with destruction and foul crimes. For daring to speak against Tony, I was informed in no uncertain terms that my lands would be burned, the men hamstrung and enslaved and the women raped by entire armies, and I myself would have to watch my wife raped by the Judge of Soliferum before she was cut open and I bathed in her blood before being slain in turn."

There was a moment of silence as the room looked in some shock at Jenred's blazing cinnamon eyes, and listened to the ugly anger in his voice. He continued in a more restrained voice.

"This was not an idle threat. Had the Southern Federation not blundered in their first assault on Talex, it would have happened. I had frantically begged aid from my neighbours, but even those who were initially willing quailed at the size of the force that marched...And I could not blame them. Arcaea, just barely, managed to hold off those forces from half a continent away, and that only because in their arrogance they attacked our best protected city instead of attacking another fortress, or being content to lay waste to my farmlands."

Jenred gestured toward James.

"Cathay was nearly broken in Anacan, and even though relief made it just barely in time, the rest of King James' lands suffered horrifically. As I understand it, the lands south of Anacan have yet to fully recover from the devastation of the war, and that leaves aside the havoc wreaked in the lands formerly held by Soliferum."

Jenred's lips tightened.

"And, of course, much of the fault for the devastation can be laid at my feet."

His lips twisted in a cold smile as a slight murmur of surprise filled the hall.

"Oh, yes. Aenilia, Cathay, Ohnar West, and Papania did not trust me. And since the matter was seen as merely political at first, nothing was done. Conan chose his target well. And it would have worked...If Tony had not been as insane as he was. That insanity eventually brought Cathay, Aenilia, and Papania into the war, and contributed to the entrance of others, despite the perfectly understandable terror they felt."

"But if they had known that they could count on the support of even half the island, much less the entirety of it...If they had known that if they dared stand and fight, they would not have done to them what Soliferum threatened to do to me, then just maybe Tony and Conan could have been stopped before the western and southern lands of the Far East were decimated."

"That is why I wish to see this League formed. I do not blame anyone for not riding to Arcaea's aid in those dark hours. I quailed myself, and had I realized how far Conan would go to save his puppet, I do not know whether I would have been able to or not."

Jenred's eyes grew haunted for a time, as he saw the pathetic remnants of Taop after it was retaken, the burned and broken bodies littered across half the island from the endless war...He shook his head to clear it, chasing the memories away with an almost desperate squeeze of Edara's hand before continuing.

"The dangers I speak of are not fanciful or figments of imagination. They have happened. Others can speak of the Chaos Requiem, still more can recount tales from Beluaterra of the horrors there. My brother Arlian once told me of grills he saw in southern Riombara were the Daimons cooked entire villages by the simple expedient of surrounding them and breathing fire onto the huts. All who fled were slain and tossed back in. Let us debate how, by all means. But why should never be in doubt."

Sir Jenred Bedwyr King of Arcaea

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Roleplay from Guy du Bas-Tyra (17 hours, 41 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (23 recipients) Guy was numbed with shock by what Jenred said, but regained his composition,

"King Jenred, you truly doubt mankind that much? Providence saved all of us, you say, but while I agree that luck is not something that should be taken into account, I trust the steel of arms and of the men who wield them. It is the nature of every living being to eliminate whatever is harmful, and I trust that the rulers of this continent will always know what is right and what is wrong, so instead of preparing an alliance which could march at a misunderstanding, we should make sure that the rulers are those capable of killing off a threat."

Guy du Bas-Tyra Count of Erahol, Ambassador of Greater Aenilia

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Roleplay from Jenred Bedwyr (17 hours, 14 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (23 recipients) "Ambassador Guy, I am confused. As far as I can tell, you and I are arguing for the same point, yet you seem to believe I am arguing for something different. I do not want this to be an alliance. I do believe that steel and the strength of arms is the way forward, hence why I have asked you all to be here. I have already agreed that King James' suggestion that the injured party or the party most at risk should take the lead, and that the League should not act without a confirmation vote. Except in times of emergency that a vote has authorized, the League would do nothing. What do you disagree with in this?"

Jenred's tone was not hostile, merely puzzled.

Sir Jenred Bedwyr King of Arcaea

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Roleplay from Guy du Bas-Tyra (16 hours, 56 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (23 recipients) "My argument is against this League, for I believe that provisional alliances will always be better in wars than a prepared army. This League would be torn apart by wars between members of the League, and that would weaken the whole of the continent."

Guy du Bas-Tyra Count of Erahol, Ambassador of Greater Aenilia

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Roleplay from Jenred Bedwyr (16 hours, 58 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (23 recipients) "Ambassador Guy...The League would not have a standing army. The League would not be torn apart by internal wars, as internal wars would be accepted and valid between League members. The idea is to have a standing agreement that under certain conditions, we will all join together to move against those who act in a manner repugnant to all nobles, or against a great, island-wide threat."

Jenred sighed.

"I do not know how many times I must repeat this, but this is not intended to be an alliance. I merely wish to see established rules of conduct with real teeth and an established system for choosing a war-leader, as I have personally seen how incredibly difficult it is to do so once a conflict has begun."

Sir Jenred Bedwyr King of Arcaea

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Roleplay from Azrea Hyral (16 hours, 41 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (23 recipients) Honored Nobles,

I believe we should stop referring to the proposed Leauge as an alliance, and instead as a pact, or a moral accord that we all agreed upon for the purposes of waging war, wars that may very well be waged among League members. To my understanding, the only time League members will be brought together as a single force is in the case of a) an island-wide threat or b) when it is determined that the terms of accord have been violated and are in need of being enforced. In either case, a lead General will be be voted into position by an as of yet unagreed-upon method, to effectively coordinate the League's multiple armies. The League will only function as an actual alliance when it is "active" so to speak. The rest of the time it will be a dormant insurance policy, certainly not some stagnating force on the day-to-day diplomacy of its members.

Some have said that we will know a great crisis when we see it, know wrong when we see it, and that we will all rally against it when the time comes regardless of any League, but I ask you to look at Beluaterra. We all seem to agree upon the danger there, but when you look do you see a great union of man against the evils that plague the land? No. No one can agree on anything, everyone is using a different scale of what is evil, what is wrong and what is acceptable. What the League will do is define, beforehand, what the people of this island consider wrong, what we all agree to stand against, so if the land falls prey to another Tony, another Requiem, another evil, no one will have to wonder who will stand beside him.

Azrea Hyral (Lord)

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Roleplay from Galiard Scarlett (16 hours, 19 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (23 recipients) Galiard watched King Jenred, blanching a little at his description of the conflict with Tony and Soliferum. He drummed his fingers on the arm of his chair and looked around at the Aenilian and Ohnarian delegations. He did not rise, but spoke:

"You must forgive my ignorance, then, King Jenred," he said, "for what you are describing is more black-and-white even than the Antozan conflict was, and there the difficulty was simply getting realms to agree that it was a worthy cause; selecting a General was easy, though I suppose I selected myself. If what you are saying about the depravity of Conan and Tony is true -- and about how Aenilia, Ohnar, Papania, and even Cathay did not believe that this was a cause worthy of their attention, or rather feared that the price was too high ... I see much better now what it is you are after. For until this moment I could not imagine circumstances such as you describe in which the great powers of the Far East would sit idly for so long. It is a hard thing, to know that so many of my friends are dead and gone, and the hard lessons we learned in our youths do not outlive us. Until now I had congratulated everyone who fought Conan and Tony -- but if indeed it took that much doing, and that much time, before the banner was raised against him, then shame on all of you who stood by, whether because it was not politically convenient, or because you thought you might fail. Shame."

There was an awkward pause as several courtiers murmured to one another about the audacity and the wisdom of a man with no formal standing railing so at Kings and Princes.

"And Shame on me," Galiard added, "for relinquishing my commitment to the ideals which drove you here today, King Jenred, and in being absent for this great conflict. Shame on me further for being absent when a man who had been one of my finest vassals and the Duke of Taop served Conan's ends in all this. I asked what problem you were trying to solve and your answer could not be more clear. And I agree with Lord Hyral that, perhaps, we have been calling this thing by the wrong name; for it is not so much a league, which might be seen as an active political entity, but a standard to which we must hold another, both as Princes and as Men -- and Women -- such that, if we could define those things that are worthy of fighting and dying for, and the causes to which we stand ready to commit our lives, actually voting on a particular matter should be a mere formality, for we should already know the conclusion. Indeed it sounds like you describe an Order, perhaps a Knightly order -- but one with an express purpose of unifying the realms of the Far East when as individuals we are prone to weakness, to political expediency, to compromise, when some situations require that we forego all those things. Such orders are commonplace and often of little account, but if one were to have the membership and commitment of everyone in this room, and the flower of the Far East's chivalry -- perhaps things might be different. Is this too far off your mark, Your Majesty?"

Sir Galiard Scarlett (Royal)

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Roleplay from Jenred Bedwyr (16 hours, 19 minutes ago) Message sent to everyone in the region Ipsosez (23 recipients) Jenred shook his head sharply.

"I do not condemn them, and neither should you, Lord Galiard. You should know as well as any that while the threats were issued, proving that was more difficult. Conan was foolish in many regards, but excellent in convincing others. He convinced me for a long time, and I cannot blame others for falling to his silvered tongue when I did. And once their true madness became clear, it did not take long for their might to assemble."

Jenred's lips twisted.

"And, as I said, much of the fault lies with me. I was too arrogant, and did not pay close attention to the sensibilities of those I should have."

"More importantly, this is not the time to fight old battles. The war is won, let the rest lie. Time to move on. And, yes, a Knightly Order might well serve, though I had not considered that idea before...That might work considerably better than my original idea, in fact."

Sir Jenred Bedwyr King of Arcaea