User:Marc J./Luz Capital Debate2

Resolution:

None... or, more accurately, nothing specific.

Luz's Capital was not moved back, (willingly) and the discussion was eventually dropped.

~~~~~~~

Out-of-Character from Dead_Angel
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (20 recipients)
To Timothy

Your explanation about "tom said this" and "tom said that" and your "I am only protecting the rules" is a lot of bull[oney]. [Sorry Tom S., had to censor your word to get around the spam filter ~ Marc J.]

In this whole discussion you only attacked Luz de Bia to move their capital. Why? Of course roimbara benefits from the movement and thats your REAL motivation.

If you were really so integer as you like to give yourself, then why didnt you mention 1 single word about Sint moving their capital back to Fianik. Exactly, you have no benifit from that and it are your allies (i think).

I sometimes do not understand Tom. He complains about the bitchering in this game, but at the same time without no written rules he promote it. Or can you find somewhere in the manual that a strategical movement of the capital is not allowed. I know what he has said on the discussionlist after your endless complaining about a issue that is 4 months back. Again i want to point on that you only mention the LdB case instead i know that you know about several other strategical movements of the capital. Do you think its fair that LdB get punished with a lightbold and Sint didnt receive any punishment. Now you requesting another punishment of LdB for something they have been punished for already. In RL court someone can not be punished 2 times for the same offense.

Just my 2 cents.

Tom S.

Out-of-Character from Bocephus
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
Sint never had its ruler lightning bolted, never received any warning messages, etc. regarding its capital move. There are different circumstances in each situation which is why I think Timothy is sticking to the LDB/Rimobara situation since he is more familiar with it.

Todd F

Out-of-Character from Delvin
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
(Copied to Tom S.)

At first, I gave equal time to Sint and Luz de Bia. However, Bocephus's player stated that he did not get lightning bolted, at which point I apologized, and focused my energies where Tom felt they were warranted.

If Bocephus's player had been lightning bolted, you may be certain that I would be putting as much into urging him to move Sint's capital as I am into urging you to move Luz de Bia's.

And frankly, I often don't understand Tom either, and I often don't agree with him. However, the rule against moving capitals for strategic purposes is a good one, and even if I disagreed with it, it is an important enough rule that I would probably help enforce it to the best of my ability, because it is a rule.

I believe that the rules are made for everyone and no one gets to slip out of them. Tom made perfectly clear that the lightning bolt was not meant as a punishment, but as a warning, and that he expected the culprits to undo their misdeeds.

I am also insulted by your assumption that I am taking IC issues OOC. As I have said before, I believe that Riombara can win this war even if Luz de Bia does not move their capital back, and I think it would be more prestigious to do so. I have long striven to separate the my IC and OOC feelings, and I will swear by anything that will make you believe me that I am doing this for one reason and one reason only: because by Tom's own words, Luz de Bia is in violation of the rules against moving capitals for strategic purposes.

And finally, I am surprised that you, of all people, a former beta-tester and coder, would so defy Tom's rules as to advocate keeping the capital where it is. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I am working to make this game a cleaner place, where those who abuse the game are not allowed to profit from their illicit actions. What are you doing?

Timothy C.

Out-of-Character from Marc
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
(copied to Tom S.)

Do you think its fair that LdB get punished with a lightbold and Sint didnt receive any punishment. Now you requesting another punishment of LdB for something they have been punished for already. In RL court someone can not be punished 2 times for the same offense.

Honestly, no, not really... but, like you said, I don't always understand Tom.

I also wasn't privy to the facts in the Sint case - nor was I consulted.

Which means, I have to muggle through the best that I can with what facts I can find.

To me, it's like this:

Both Luz and Sint moved their capital. Tom, (to the best of my knowledge) judged that both movements where stratigic in nature, but only lighting-bolted the Luzian Ruler. (Don't know if it was Nhoc at the time)

Again, to the best of my knowledge, the only reason the Luzian Ruler was LB'ed was because they moved their capital. Now, to me, that means that the capital should have been moved back - by either Tom doing it, or Nhoc doing it.

Whether this is a "second case" or not is debatable, (depending on your view, it could also be a continuation of the first case, with Tom's "dishonourable scum" email as new evidence) but, in the end, Luz's capital, (accourding to Tom, not little ole me!) should not be in Grehk.

There are different circumstances in each situation which is why I think Timothy is sticking to the LDB/Rimobara situation since he is more familiar with it.

The same reason here is for me as well.

And finally, I am surprised that you, of all people, a former beta-tester and coder, would so defy Tom's rules as to advocate keeping the capital where it is. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I am working to make this game a cleaner place, where those who abuse the game are not allowed to profit from their illicit actions. What are you doing?

:shoots Tim a look:

In my opinion, Tom S., you are a "senior" player. Multiple Rulerships, General's, Judge's, Region Lord's out the whazzo, (plus the whole "sharing the same name as the Creator") can you blame us for looking up to you?

I know at least one King who does... and looks up to a certain Prime Minister as well.

The Tom, (V., that is) moves in mysterious ways; we don't have to destroy each other in order to understand him.

Marc J.

Out-of-Character from Dead_Angel
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (20 recipients)
Timothy

I will now stop this discussion with you as it is leading to nowhere and i am not the one who makes the decision about this.

Basically it comes to 2 things.

1. Tom mail leaves lots of space for interpretation about IF LdB should move their capital back. It all depends from which viewpoint you look at it. Also Tom decided that LdB capital movement was strategical nature, but never asked if there were other reasons to move the capital. At that time Roimbara and LdB were not at war, and from our side we were not planing one. It was you that violanced the treaty we had and caused the war.

2. I think this whole issue would have been less fishy if you were actually working against ALL realms that moved their capital. I guess you have a lot of work to do than on EC and other islands. But instead you declare yourself the the hero that makes this game cleaner, but only complain about your opponent in a war.

Yes i was coder and beta tester, i am also a "senior" player of the game. This is why i know most "unwritten" rules. I think this issue should move back to the discussionlist and Tom should state clearly if LdB should move their capital back to Jidington (or one of the previous capitals of this realm), as far as i heared history of this area, almost every city has been capital once.

I don´t think that your Crusade against Luz de Bia will change anything. A clear statement from tom like "Yes, Luz de Bia should move their capital to " will make it happen. For the rest it will always be seen as you want to get an OOC advantage by complaining about something that happend 4 months ago.

I will not reply anymore to the ruler channel. I will follow the discussion from the sideline now (where i should have stayed from the start. Sorry Bruno)

Tom S.

Out-of-Character from Delvin
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
My reading of Tom's email is different, and I do not see the room for interpretation that you do. The treaty issue is an IC thing, and I'd prefer to leave it there, but it was pretty obvious to Riombara before you moved your capital that you were preparing for war with us--at least rhetorically.

I don't have any characters on the East Continent, so I don't know what the heck goes on there--and frankly, I don't care. Nuke the whole place. If someone has been lightning bolted there for moving their capital for strategic purposes, then they should certainly move it back, but I don't have any way of knowing about it, let alone doing anything about it.

My reading of the history of Luz de Bia suggests that Jidington has been its capital from the founding, but I will willingly accept corrections from those more knowledgeable in its history. However, Jidington was the capital before the move, and I think that putting things back exactly as they were before the abuse happened is the fairest thing to do.

And finally, I don't think Tom can be much clearer than: "You now know that these PLAYERS have no honour in them. If they had, they'd have moved the capital back after receiving the bolts. They didn't. So they're disgusting scum."

That seems quite clear to me. The fact that it doesn't mention you by name is totally irrelevant. Who he was talking about was abundantly clear from the context.

Timothy C.

Out-of-Character from Scion the Skilled
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
You know, I cant help but to think that you doing it for Riombara, not justice.

Robert W.

Out-of-Character from Delvin
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
Well, if you think I'm lying, there's absolutely nothing I can do about what you believe. I can say anything I want, and, no matter how convincing it might be, you can just call it more lies. However, I am doing this for justice.

And, in the end, do my motivations matter? The point is not who relays Tom's words, or why they do so, but the fact that Tom's own words say that the capital must be moved back.

Timothy C.

Out-of-Character from Scion the Skilled
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
Yes, but it seems you have only inherited your undying love for relaying Toms word when it benifits your characters.

Why have you not spoken of this before? And only when Riombara begins to lose?

Robert W.

Out-of-Character from Delvin
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
Actually, Riombara's winning now, if you take a close look...

I just answered this question for Luz de Bia's banker, just a sec...

OK, got it: -- It took me so long to bring this up because at the time I assumed, as I believe everyone did, that when Tom lightning-bolted Nhoc, that was meant to be the entire punishment for the capital move, and nothing else was going to be done, or expected. I sent two emails to Tom, very calmly and politely laying out the reasons I thought it was insufficient (basically, such a tiny punishment is almost an incentive to abuse the move-capital feature). I received no response. Then the issue came up on the discussion list, and Tom explained what his intentions were.

We had misunderstood all along, and the lightning bolt was meant as a warning--and an indication that he expected the people bolted to undo what they did. It was that piece that we had all been missing all along, which is why I think I came on somewhat too strong in my initial message to the ruler channel: I really believed that Bruno had been mistaken, just as I was, as to Tom's intent.

What I had hoped to do was clarify Tom's intent to Bruno and everyone else concerned, and call for him to do what Tom was expecting, with the belief that he would say, "Oh, that's what Tom expects? Whoops, can we put the war on hold for a few weeks while we iron that out?" However he's said exactly nothing to me since I sent that first message, IC or OOC... --

Hope that answers that question.

Timothy C.

Out-of-Character from Scion the Skilled
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
Okay, and let me guess, this is the result you were expecting from Bruno?:

"Oh! Okay! No problem! Let us put this war on hold so both of our enemies can fully refit while we move our capital further away from both of them, so that when we start again you can kick our butts!"

It just doesnt make sense. Put yourself in his position. Ask yourself honestly, would you risk your entire realm, the realm that YOU are in charge of, because your enemies ruler says that Tom thinks it wrong?

If Tom did not feel he fully punished them, perhaps he should do so HIMSELF, rather than try to have it interperated by another player.

Plus, I highly doubt that when Tom said that, that he specifically said:

"Timothy, please begin a huge long disscussion that half of the rulers dont care about on my behalf until your enemy moves its captial."

Or did he?

Robert W.

Out-of-Character from Delvin
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
I will, once again, copy the relevant statement from Tom, with commentary interspersed:

I see this as something to solve on the player level: So he won't do it himself, because he has a policy of not doing manual interventions except in extreme circumstances. You now know that these PLAYERS have no honour in them. If they had, they'd have moved the capital back after receiving the bolts. Meaning that he expected Nhoc to move the capital back to Jidington after he was bolted. They didn't. So they're disgusting scum. As is anyone who thinks that cheating at an online game like this is a good use of their time. If I were on the receiving end of this, I'd start an OOC discussion on the ruler channel in order to get other realms on my side for the express purpose of making it clear that we all don't want to play with dishonourable scum. That's exactly what I did. Actually, it's more or less a paraphrase of what you said you doubt Tom said to do, which I find somewhat amusing...

Now, please tell me how Tom's email does not indicate that he wants the capital moved back...

Oh, and by the way, if Bruno told me, OOC, that Tom said something I was doing was wrong, OOC, and he provided a quote from Tom supporting that position, I would first of all acknowledge it, even if I disagreed with it, and either take it up with Tom directly (saying so to Bruno), or work out the best way to do what Tom wanted.

I'm not saying I would immediately acquiesce--but I would take it very seriously, and try to do at least something toward addressing it quickly.

Timothy C.

Out-of-Character from Scion the Skilled
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
Well let me make my stand point on this 'debate':

If Tom says realms that moved thier capitals for military purposes should move thier capitals back, I feel HE should tell ALL of them. There is NO sense in only punishing ONE realm for a crime that MANY others have commited.

And if he really feels that this is cheating, than maybe he should crack down on it, and punish the players more throughly next time it is done.

But I do not see the sense in Luz moving thier capital back unless ALL realms on ALL continents do so.

So MY suggestion would be to let this one go, and give the realms from here on a fair warning about this whole capital thing. And if they violate it, ALL other realms should punish them if Tom wont.

But I dont suppose you'll let this one go will you Timothy?

Robert W.

Out-of-Character from Delvin
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
No, I won't.

I don't believe in giving one cheater a pass simply because I can't get to all the cheaters.

Your logic amounts to, "You can't stop everyone, so don't even try to stop anyone."

I don't know about other current capital moves, and the only one I can think of in the past that I have firsthand knowledge of was pre-approved by Tom (I know because I was the one who got that approval).

I would be overjoyed if Tom would take a more proactive stance on this, and move all the capitals back himself. But he has said that the players need to take care of it. That means that we should all say to Nhoc, "Move the capital back, or none of us will ever trust you again."

Timothy C.

Out-of-Character from Scion the Skilled
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
No, my logic is its unfair to punish one, and let all the others get away. I feel that now this entire ordeal has been clarified, we should go about it henceforth. And since Tom did not make this ENTIRLEY clear that it was illegal in the past, i dont think its fair to punish those who may not have known.

Robert W.

Out-of-Character from Delvin
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
Who's punishing?

I'm trying to right a wrong, not punish anyone. There doesn't have to be any negative consequences of moving the capital back to Jidington--except that they won't get to enjoy the benefits of their abuse anymore. Riombara and Irombrozia have already indicated their complete willingness to give Luz de Bia an open-ended ceasefire to move the capital and deal with any fallout from it.

The point isn't what they knew before, it's what they know now that's important. They know now that it's wrong. They're supposed to fix it.

Timothy C.

Out-of-Character from Scion the Skilled
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
You know very well that that would have nothing but negative effects on Luz's behalf, and quite frankly, I dont blame them for not wanting to move thier capital back. I will say no more on the subject. Ive stated where I stand.

Robert W.

Out-of-Character from Delvin
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
What negative effects?

Their capital was in Jidington from the founding of their realm. The only negative effect they get from putting it back there is not being able to recruit at the front of their war with us. That was the purpose of moving it; that was the abuse they were warned about; that is why they have to move it back.

Any other negative effects are transitory, and, as I said, we'll give them all the time they need to deal with those.

Timothy C.

Out-of-Character from Tolandruth
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (20 recipients)
This was from Nhoc explaining the Capitol Move to the realm. It's a good bit of history.

The issue of here to place our capital is one we already debated several times in the past. Those of us here for the last 3 years or so went through all but many of you haven't, so let's me share the points, conclusions and details I recalled from those times.

Our realm is situated in a very compact area, there are 5 cities and several rural areas, most of the time we've had at most 4 of those cities. Things that has been constant in our lives have been undead/monsters and food. The first because they show up every so often and the second because this area of the world can't feed all it's cities. War hasn't been that often, there was one initially with Riombara, basically one out of two internal secessions and this latest one.

During the first undead invasion 3 years ago there were 4 realms in the 4 cities we now control. Eno Chia in Eno was our mother realm and although it survived the invasion it collapsed right after mostly because the city couldn't feed itself. Eylmon seceded but during or right after it collapsed as well because it couldn't be feed. The first Riombara was in Grehk and it was overrun by the undead. Jidington, our capital at the time, was the only city that survived the onslaught.

After this we started to regain all the rogue regions in the area and the issue of a capital change first showed up if I recall correctly. By then and till the second invasion we concluded that Jidington was in fact the city best suited to survive invasions, the population numbers are right in the middle between Eno and both Grehk and Eylmon, easier to feed but also giving more gold, and it only has two adjacent regions, thus easier to defend, then the very important fact that within a 2 region radius we have 5 food producing regions. It was kind of obvious this was our best bet for undead invasions. Grehk has only 4 rural regions nearby, less people to feed but also less gold, then 3 points to defend from and a crossroad of 3 routes for undeads traveling. Eylmon it's easier to defend but only has 2 rural areas nearby and less gold. After it seceded we didn't even need to fight a battle, it collapsed on it's own. Eno has 5 rural in the 2 region radius, but it's monster to feed and harder to defend. The choice for an undead invasion capital was settled.

For a peace time capital we realized that just looking at the map could induce us in error. After the first invasion and the treaty with Riombara our realm would consist of all the regions in the "square" except Ardmore, Rii, Rueffilo and Irombro. War was not in anyone's mind, we had just come out of the invasion and relations with Riombara were good, we had a treaty, trade relations and all the usual peace stuff. We kept to ourselves as we've done most of our history. Eylmon at first glance seems to be the obvious choice for a peace time capital, but the region for practical effects is locked, there's the river to the east and Bym to the north, which complicates a lot travel times as we've learned countless times. So for the exercise we can consider in a worst case scenario that Bym is a hole with no region in it. Eylmon then has at most a distance of 5 regions till Cagamir, the farthest away, but for the northern regions it would be better to travel around Bym. This complicates all movements, traders and food, bureaucrats, armies. Jidington gives at most a 6 regions distance to Cagamir, even farther away. Eno is better because every region can be reached at a maximum of 5 hops, but it's a monster city, several times throughout history it starved, once a realm collapsed there and another we just had to let it go rogue. It's complicated to handle a capital that can starve at any minute. Grehk can also reach every other region within a 5 step radius, and is easier to feed being one of the lest populous of our cities and is nearby the east and north trading routes. At that time we concluded that Grehk would be the best city to have as capital during peace times and we talked about moving the capital there, but we were a bit slow in recovering our realm, in fact we were the last realm in the continent to finish rebuilding itself, and by the time we finished the second invasion happened 2 years and again Jidington became the best bet for a capital.

After the second invasion we would have moved the capital as we didn't intend to take as much time to recover again, but Grehk seceded and during the following months we had to fought those rebels to regain control of the city and it's adjacent regions. (Continues...)

Arthur O.

Letter from Tolandruth
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (20 recipients)
(Countines...)

Once the war ended and we had regained most of our regions we finally moved the capital. The only odd event during this was that Riombara had taken the opportunity that we were busy fighting the secession to break our treaty and capture two of our assigned regions, Bolkenia and Cagamir. We had for long talks and debates, lasting months, trying to reverse the situation and get back to treaty terms peacefully, but they didn't and finally we decided to declare war on them while activating the arbitrary clause where Enweil would enter the war on our side.

Afterwards came what we are seeing. This was the story of our capitals and their choices, we spent a lot of time thinking about it and we better than anyone else outside our realm we know where best to situate our capital.

That was all Nhoc. This is from me:

Delvin, stand on your own two feet and stop saying Tom said this and Tom said that and Tom meant for LdB to move their capitol back (he said PLAYERS as you capitolized, meaning others did it and may not even mean LdB but them...ever thought of that? Nope cause your worring about your realms interests).

Apologies in advanced, I know I'll regret my words later cause I'm just tired of all the talk of the Capitol Move. Making the game get bad all because one person complained about it when he went to war with us thinking we moved it for war purposes.

Tolandruth (Knight of Jidington)

Out-of-Character from Delvin
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
(Copied to Tolandruth)

The discussion was directly about Luz de Bia and Sint (as, at that point, I was under the impression that Bocephus was bolted, too). It would be a BIG stretch to imagine that Tom was talking about anyone else.

What Tom said clearly indicates that we, as players, should be handling this. Your relayed reasoning from Nhoc is the very first time I have heard any indication that this was intended as anything but a way to get your capital closer to Riombara. However, I'm afraid I'm not entirely convinced. You did not even own Bolkenia and Cagamir when you moved it, and Delvin had made clear that the only way you were going to get them was by force, so even to make your reasons work you would have had to know you would be going to war against us.

As I said before, though, if you can convince Tom that your intentions were honourable, I'll accept his word. Until then, I will not stop until you move your capital back to Jidington.

Timothy C.

Out-of-Character from Hireshmont
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (20 recipients)
May I suggest you all step back, eat a cookie, talk a walk for some fresh air, THEN come back and tear each other apart? I find that the cool night (or, depending on your timezone, day right now) air is very refreshing, and can help clear the head, and make you respond to other people with a cooler head.

I'm not siding with either side, just recomending that everybody calms down.

Oh, a quick question, did I see an OOC reference to Hireshmont's letter of insult to Grim-Reaper in the player of Danan Isig's letter? I think I did, and my response is: ROTFL.

• eats a cookie*

Lyman S.

Out-of-Character from Handkor
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
Only one thing, if it would be for justice, would it matters if the ruler was lighting bolted or not?

If Luz have to move it back, Sint should as well.

As for Luz wanting to move there capital I knew that they wanted to move it for a while before they moved it. Didn't get to see the whole reasonning about it nor did I knew the target, but it didn't sounded like it was a strategic move.

A question, when does moving a capital stop being a strategic move? For example, if for some reason after the last undead invasion it would have been decided that Fheuvenem would have made a better capital and that it's moved there, but that 4 months after it we would have been engaged in a war against Plergoth would that be considered a tactical move?

Or put in other word, any and all capital move, not taking into account the time lenght, are to end up as a tactical move of the capital one day or another when you declare war on a realm.

Philippe V.

Out-of-Character from Pholtus
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
There are multiple levels of lightning bolt--I believe Tom calls them "lightning bolt" and "lightning storm." The former seriously wounds a character. The latter kills him or her.

This was the basis of my comment that being "lightning bolted" was not terribly significant if its perceived as a punishment. Most of us have had our characters "seriously wounded" more times than we can count. They are taken under a healer's care, and they recover. Its no big deal. So if a player committed an act that gave them a significant advantage over others, at no greater cost to them than a serious wound, it would hardly be an adequate balance.

While it is clear that Tom reserves the right to kill a character with an even more impressive display of electricity, the initial bolt is obviously just a warning: retreat from your current position or suffer far greater consequences. Why would anyone want to tempt fate when a stronger response is known to exist, and Tom has made his feeling on this subject known? I guess I just don't understand why anyone would want to take that kind of risk.

Honestly, it seems really simple: if Tom states a position on whether something violates the game rules, what justification can there be for defying him? He created the game-world, he determines whats legal in it, and he has the power to turn any character into a deleted file. What was considered okay in the past is really not relevant in any way: this game is constantly changing - look at the differences wrought by the addition of Priests, and how much change the new tax system will bring when it goes into effect.

Joseph E. U.

Out-of-Character from Pholtus
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
Then the issue came up on the discussion list, and Tom explained what his intentions were.

We had misunderstood all along, and the lightning bolt was meant as a warning--and an indication that he expected the people bolted to undo what they did. It was that piece that we had all been missing all along, which is why I think I came on somewhat too strong in my initial message to the ruler channel: I really believed that Bruno had been mistaken, just as I was, as to Tom's intent.

I find that I rarely have time to read the discussion list. So, just for clarification, when did this message get posted by Tom? If I'm interpreting you correctly, it was only recently, which would explain why you brought it up "four months after the fact". It also sounds to me like Tom's comment was NOT a reply to your email(s), which he seemed to ignore (you yourself said you got no response). My guess is that he was getting frustrated by all the various abuses that were going on across the game-world. Since I only know of two capitals being moved on Beluaterra, I highly doubt we were the entire focus of his ire. Especially since I've seen gratuitous abuses that make these pale in comparison. (My favorite was the Kingdom that moved their capital so they could cede their former capital to a distant ally who could then use it as a supply base to repair and cash bonds in...talk about outrageous!)

Anyway...do I think Delvin is influenced by the fact that he will bennefit by the application of "Justice"? Not at all! Whats more likely true, if you can see the distinction, is that he doesn't want to suffer a disadvantage because his opponent is using an exploit. If he is to be defeated, he doesn't want to lose because of manipulation of a loophole. When my friends and I play table-top strategy games, and somebody takes advantage of an ambiguity in the rules to win, or does something thats technically not forbidden but is obviously unrealistic, we say that its "gamey". Not quite openly cheating...but opportunistic, and pretty "lame". Would I complain if my enemy had taken an illegal action that would give them an unfair advantage over me? Damn straight! And can any of you really pretend that you wouldn't under those circumstances?

To those who complain about something IC being taken OOC - I have to shake my head sometimes when I hear such remarks. This is NOT a pure role-playing game. Its partially rpg, but if thats what you're looking for you're definately in the wrong game. Its far more strategy game than rpg. And if you're going to discuss the rules, how else would you speak of them if not OOC? Are you really going to role-play your character discussing a computer game?

Now, bear in mind that I never saw the original discussion list message. But we have someone saying:

"1. Tom mail leaves lots of space for interpretation..."

Um...no...I can't really see that at all. Unless it was misreported, Tom said:

"You now know that these PLAYERS have no honour in them. If they had, they'd have moved the capital back after receiving the bolts. They didn't. So they're disgusting scum."

Thats pretty cut and dried. I only see one interpretation there.

2. I think this whole issue would have been less fishy if you were actually working against ALL realms that moved their capital.

Okay, well since I'm not the Ruler of Riombara, let me say that I agree with the whole notion of someone raised as crusading against this for justice's sake and think that if a realm moves their capital in a way that gains them a material advantage in a war, it is cheesy and a cheap shot no matter how they justify it. Capitals are not housed in a big headquarters tent that is just moved to whatever border is closest to your current enemy. Surely people can see the abuse of this ability that can result. Every time a realm is in a war, they could move their capital to whatever city is closest to the enemy. Thats just not realistic. About the only time I can see a realm moving their capital is when the existing one is about to fall to an enemy force. There are many precedents for that in history.

And no, I'm not showing favoritism toward those I'm allied with. I don't think that Sint should have moved their capital either (sorry Bocephus). Though my understanding is that Tom did not smite them with lightning because they had a role-playing reason behind it that he accepted as adequate justification, and not just the desire to be able to recruit troops closer to Ashborn.

PS: Please remember everyone, this is all OOC! My opinions are not neccesarily those of Pholtus!

Joseph E. U.

Out-of-Character from Julma Jaune
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
I brought this thing back to mailing list. We have heard most of us rulers opinion about it and since we seem not get reply from LdB ruler what is his opinion about it and we dont seem to get anywhere with this discussion.

I assume we continue playing normally, since support for "forcing" LdB to do it is not big enough if so many rulers think it is ok to keep their capital where it is now.

Personally i'm disappointed, but mayby it is just me(and few others) who understanded Toms email as clear statement that capital should be moved back. I asked if Tom could make official statement about it to rulers of BT so we can get over it and continue normal gameplay.

Jani K.

Out-of-Character from Delvin
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
Philippe, as has been stated multiple times, the only way we can know if Tom considers a particular capital move abusive is by looking at whom he has bolted. There most certainly are legitimate roleplay reasons to move a capital, and religion is one of the best of them.

You can't just tar everyone with the same brush; some people do move their capitals for good reasons. And it's not like Luz declared war on us four months after they moved the capital: we had infiltrators scouting their regions, and it appeared to us that no sooner were they finished repairing the damage done by the capital move than they declared war on us and attacked. It was a little while later that I brought up the issue initially on the discussion list, and Tom flung the bolt. It has now been four months since then, not since they moved the capital.

Joseph, Tom's email was, indeed, a week ago today. The topic of capital moves came up again, and I mentioned the fact that the ones on Beluaterra had gone essentially unpunished. There was some back-and-forth about the nature of punishment, and then Tom clarified his intentions with that email.

Timothy C.