User:Marc J./Luz Capital Debate
Resolution:
None... or, more accurately, nothing specific.
Luz's Capital was not moved back, (willingly) and the discussion was eventually dropped.
~~~~~~~
This is a list of the Ruler messages regarding the Capital Movement debate held on Beluaterra 10/10/2006.
(Note: Some of the messages from Marc may be out of order. Extra care was taken to try and avoid that, but it's possible that a message was misplaced)
Out-of-Character from Delvin
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
Greetings, players of the rulers of Beluaterra.
I would like to speak to you to today about abuse. Specifically, moving one's capital in order to be able to recruit closer to the front.
This has been declared absolutely and unequivocally to be cheating by Tom. Most of you will recall when, a few months ago, the rulers of Sint and Luz de Bia were lightning bolted by Tom for doing exactly that.
However, they continue to profit from their abuse. I had always assumed that the lightning bolt was Tom's chosen punishment, and he had Decided that it was sufficient. I had assumed that he didn't think anything more was required of anyone. Indeed, that is why I never said anything in-game...and that is, I believe, why they did not decide to move their capitals back, because they assumed the same thing.
Until now.
I draw your attention to a post Tom made, less than an hour ago, to the discussion mailing list, which can be viewed in its entirety at http://news.battlemaster.org/pipermail/discuss/2006-October/016591.html
-- I see this as something to solve on the player level: You now know that these PLAYERS have no honour in them. If they had, they'd have moved the capital back after receiving the bolts. They didn't. So they're disgusting scum. If I were on the receiving end of this, I'd start an OOC discussion on the ruler channel in order to get other realms on my side for the express purpose of making it clear that we all don't want to play with dishonourable scum. --
I now call upon Todd F. and Bruno C., players of Bocephus and Nhoc respectively, to do the right thing, and move their capitals back to where they were before the move. Not because Tom will punish you for not doing so, but because it is abuse to keep them where they are today, and Tom himself has proclaimed you to be dishonourable scum if you do not do so.
I know that I, for one, will never trust anyone--any player, not just character--who is willing to keep profiting from an abuse after he has been told that it is an abuse by Tom himself--and even had his character lightning bolted for it!
I hope that you all feel the same, and I hope that, out of their spirit of fair play, and based on Tom's clarification of his intentions on this matter, Todd and Bruno will immediately begin making arrangements to return their capitals to where they belong.
Thank you.
Timothy C.
Out-of-Character from Scion the Skilled
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
No offense intended, but you should never call a PLAYER scum. They may be cheaters, and you may not like them. In fact you do NOT have to like them. My former duke of Heen and one of my characters most trusted subjects turned out to be a cheater. And he was cast from the realm. But I will NOT call him scum even though he really hurt Heen by haveing to waste turns to get him out of office then get a new duke..
And only dishonoable players would call another player scum. Timothy, you may have been playing this game WAY before I have, but still, get some morels about youself. Just because the creator of this game calls them scum doesnt mean it grants you the right to do so either. And had you called me scum, I would have taken it VERY personally. And you would have NEVER been removed from my ignore list.
Seriously, grow up. Name calling IRL is for elementary school.
Robert W.
Out-of-Character from Delvin
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
They're not my words, but anyone who thinks that it's OK to break the rules just to get ahead in an online role-playing game whose purpose is, first and foremost, to have a good time with friends, is scum.
Timothy C.
Out-of-Character from Scion the Skilled
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
Even cheaters are real people. And I refuse to call another PLAYER anything. And people who do lose repect in my eyes.
Nobodys perfect, and what if they didnt even know that it was an abuse? What if they DID know it was an abuse that sombody ELSE commited? Are you going to call the whole realm cheaters? Several realms in this game have done this exact thing:
Perdan Fontan Old Rancauga Kalmar Islands Yssaria Itorunt (just recently) Greater Anelia? (not entirly sure) Abington? (so Ive herd)
And Ive herd of several others, but I will not post thier names as Im not entirly sure.
So are the players of these realms also "scum"? I happen to know a few of these players, and they are not 'scum'. We are all human, and some of us feel that we shouldnt have to pay, or our realm shouldnt have to pay for someone elses mistake.
And I will stop my part in this disscussion now, as I have already had one of my characters bolted by Tom, and I do not intend on getting another one bolted.
I did not mean to cause any offense in this message. It is simply for disscussion.
Robert W.
Out-of-Character from Delvin
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
I don't currently know of anyone in the game who is willfully profiting from cheating, so I will not call anyone "scum". If Todd and Bruno wish to continue to profit from the move of their capitals, then they are by Tom's own words scum.
Timothy C.
Out-of-Character from Bocephus
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
Timothy C.,
Before you start calling people scum maybe you should pull the self-righteous pacifier out of your mouth, quit acting like a baby and get your facts straight.
This has been declared absolutely and unequivocally to be cheating by Tom. Most of you will recall when, a few months ago, the rulers of Sint and Luz de Bia were lightning bolted by Tom for doing exactly that.
I was never lightning bolted. There were several reasons why the capital was moved in Sint and there was much discussion on the various legitimate reasons for moving the capital by all players in Sint before and after the move(not to mention the fact that no one knew the dos and donts of moving the capital). This was all brought up and settled months ago along with several emails that I personally sent Tom and I am not going to go through it all again. The fact that you call me scum out of character in front of everyone here without even having the courtesy to send me one private inquiry to address this or ask what happened tells me a lot about the type of person you are and the level of integrity, honesty and character that you possess. Take your witch hunt else where and quit acting like a sniveling, immature brat. Thank you Robert W. for also pointing this out. Some people!!! Sheeesh!
Todd F
Out-of-Character from Delvin
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
Really?
In that case, I apologize: I had heard that you were lightning bolted, too. I'm not very well-informed about what happens at that end of the continent.
And, once again, I didn't call anyone scum. Those were Tom's words, and they were reserved for those who do in fact benefit from abuse, so clearly he already doesn't think you qualify.
I would appreciate it if people would take the time to actually read what Tom says, and consider it in the context of a game which some people think it's OK to cheat at in order to get advantages for their characters...and also to realize that I am not doing this because Riombara is losing the war. Riombara is, in fact, doing pretty well at this point, despite the significant disadvantage Luz's capital being in Grehk gives us. Frankly, I think we can win the war now, which would be quite a feather in Riombara's cap.
I am doing this because profiting from abuse is wrong and, much like Delvin, I don't believe in being that dishonest, or allowing others to be so without saying anything.
Timothy C.
Out-of-Character from Bocephus
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
I appreciate the apology Timothy. I remember talking to Jason F.(the ruler of Ashborn) after it happened and we discussed it and I consider him an in-game friend and enjoy playing/sharing this game with a couple of his characters to this day.
Todd F
Out-of-Character from Julma Jaune
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
C'mon people.
How in the earth you are so sensitive?
I suggest that those who abused moving capital feature, will move their capital back and those who are involved in war with them will give them one week CF while doing this. If they dont agree Thalmarkin is ready to support to overthrown those rulers who abused the feature and i hope others are too.
There is rules on this game and those rules have been breached, but things havent been fixed yet.
And i suggest that to avoid this kind of happenings in future, you will contact your neighbours(friends and foes) and discuss about that capital change in your mind and ask their opinions.
Jani K.
Out-of-Character from Marc
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
Honestly, Timothy could have chosen his words more... diplomaticly, but in effect, he's right.
If Tom says something, then it should be done.
(Whether he's right or not, isn't the point for this discussion)
Bottom line: if Tom says something is abuse, the abuser should apologize and correct whatever the abuse was.
(i.e. if a Ruler's bulletin says that Hero's aren't allowed in that realm; the LB-ee should remove that text from the Bulletin. It's the same principal with the capitals)
Marc J.
Out-of-Character from Grim-Reaper
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
If Tom says something, then it should be done.
I completly support Marc in this :) Tom is the closest to a god i know :D
j p.
Out-of-Character from Delvin
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
Oh, absolutely. I wouldn't ask you to fight while dealing with that. Riombara will agree to a ceasefire for as long as you need to regroup after the move. I will personally guarantee it.
Timothy C.
Out-of-Character from Marc
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
I suggest that those who abused moving capital feature, will move their capital back and those who are involved in war with them will give them one week CF while doing this.
I'll support this.
Bruno, if you're interested, message Tim and myself and I'm pretty sure we can work something out.
Marc J.
Out-of-Character from Delvin
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
Oh, absolutely. I wouldn't ask you to fight while dealing with that. Riombara will agree to a ceasefire for as long as you need to regroup after the move. I will personally guarantee it.
Timothy C.
Out-of-Character from Julma Jaune
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
Soo, havent heard any comments from LdB or Enweil(as well of many others either) on this capital movement thing.
Enweil is important factor on this incase LdB refuses to move its capital and Enweil support their decision and defend them if "we" try to force LdB.
Correct me if i'm wrong, Sint was not involved on this recent lightningbolt because of capital movement, so thus not found guilty of abuse, but LdB's ruler was?
Jani K.
Out-of-Character from Dead_Angel
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (20 recipients)
hmmm Did Roimbara move their capital before last monster invasion not from Rines to Grehk for exactly the same reason their are blaming us for?
Kind of hypocrite don't you think so?
Looks like they try to win this war on OOC ways. kind of "Can't you win a war ingame then start complaining on the discussionlist and get enough people on your side"
Tom S.
Out-of-Character from Delvin
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
(copied to Tom S)
Even if that is true, it is completely irrelevant for 3 reasons: 1) That was a completely different Riombara than this one. The realm was since destroyed and remade. Very few players remain from that Riombara, and maybe only one or two characters. 2) That was what, two years ago in RL? Tom wasn't nearly as strict about capital moves back then, to my understanding. In fact, I contacted him about one on the SWI after that, which was for pretty much purely strategic purposes, and he said he was OK with it. 3) "But they did it first" is NEVER an appropriate excuse for breaking the rules.
And frankly, Tom S., I expected better of you. This is an abuse, and has been declared as such by Tom V. You know the rules as well as I do, and I thought that you were committed to upholding those rules. And furthermore, if you are seriously advocating keeping the capital where it is so that you can win the war, then are you not guilty of exactly "trying to win the war in OOC ways"?
Timothy C.
Out-of-Character from Dead_Angel
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (20 recipients)
As your said yourself Timothy.
Tom declared it as an abuse now and 2 years ago he wasn't strict on that.
In my opinion we had several strategical capital movements over time which has not been punished at all.
Just because you complained LOUD on the discussionlist he was forced to draw a final line on it. He already punished the Ruler with a lightbold for this offense, in the case of Sint he didnt do anything. Which most probably caused that Ashborn lost the war as they were not able to get Firbalt back anymore.
Yes i commited myself to protect the rules of the game, but this is one rule i have always disagreed with tom V about it. 2 years ago he allowed it and now he doesn't. How can the players react on that as it depends on which mood Tom V is in when he write his email to the discussionlist.
Tom S.
Out-of-Character from Delvin
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
(Copied to Tom S)
Yes, the rules change. However, Tom V has been very clear about his policy on strategic capital moves for several months now.
And even if you can claim prior ignorance of the fact that it was abuse, you cannot say that your continued refusal to move the capital back is because of any ignorance. Tom has stated in very clear terms that the capital move was abuse. Regardless of your opinion on the matter, the rules are the rules. I don't always agree with Tom either, but I'm not stupid: it's his game, so we play by his rules.
So it all comes down to a simple question: Which is more important to you, destroying Riombara, or following the rules of Tom's game?
Timothy C.
Out-of-Character from Dead_Angel
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (20 recipients)
The capital movement from LdB and Sint was basis for that Tom V made the rules clear several months ago. The Luz de Bia capital was moved back then and not Yesterday. Before that it was quite unclear.
Tom S
Out-of-Character from Delvin
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
Again: even so, it's perfectly clear now that it is abuse. Tom has said it. On what basis do you claim that continuing to keep the capital in Grehk is not abuse?
Timothy C.
Out-of-Character from Geoff
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
According to your original email, the suggestion was to open a discussion OOC on the ruler channel. Based on that, I'll offer my opinion to the debate.
If it was indeed a legal action when it was done, then why should the change be made now? I don't see a reason to punish someone for a wrongdoing that wasn't a wrongdoing at the time of occurence. It seems unjust. Perhaps there's another way to remedy the situation without moving the capital? Or perhaps it should be done to get on with the game?
Since it is an issue of balance, let's be friendly here. I don't care who's right and who's wrong, because it's a gray area.
However, is there a compromise the two of you can work out that will end the discussion? It's a shame that this is becoming such a rules-interpretation issue. Call a ceasefire. Give back a region. I'm sure the rest of the channel won't mind acting as a panel for your suggestions if you can't come to a compromise.
Any productive suggestions from the two of you?
Patrick H.
Out-of-Character from Delvin
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
It was NOT a legal action when it was done. Tom has clearly said as much. The main reason he didn't move it back himself is that he almost never does any of that kind of manual intervention.
His email makes it quite clear that what he expects of an honourable player is to move the capital back.
Moving the capital for strategic reasons has been at best a gray area for as long as I can remember. A year and a few months ago, for precisely that reason, I wrote Tom an email asking if it would be OK to move the capital of SWI Taselak from Taselak to Toren. He said it was risky, but we could go ahead. Since then, he did, indeed, start to change his position on the issue, but the fact that I thought it was important to ask him that long ago would seem to indicate that even then, it was known to be a touchy issue. In more recent times, Tom has made it known on the discussion list that he considered it much more of an abuse. Unfortunately, the search on my mail client is currently on the fritz, so I can't find the actual messages that made it clear, but it was becoming clear. And ignorance of the rules has never been a valid defense for breaking them.
Any compromise on the matter would have to include the return of the capital to Jidington, as that is precisely what is at issue, and I'm not sure what Riombara has to offer in return aside from peace...especially since Luz has taken half our regions already.
Timothy C.
Out-of-Character from Geoff
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
So what exactly do you want to see happen with this capital-moving campaign? I'm a little hazy on what you expect others to do for you...
Patrick H.
Out-of-Character from Delvin
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
What I want to see is Nhoc doing the honourable thing, and the rest of Beluaterra encouraging him to do it. If he doesn't, naturally there's nothing I can actually do to him directly. However, I can and most certainly will make sure that everyone knows that he can't be trusted to follow the rules.
I know that the fact that I stand to gain from this puts me in a bad light: however, I will swear by whatever you like that I would be doing the same thing if I were in Luz de Bia. The rules of the game, and maintaining integrity, are always more important than any IC concerns like winning a war.
I would rather lose the war and have Riombara destroyed and Delvin executed than compromise my integrity.
Timothy C.
Out-of-Character from Dementor
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (20 recipients)
This entire discution is over something that was delt with over 4 months ago. The simple fact that you are bringing it up now is mearly showing that you are afraid and looking for any way possible to try and gain some kind of stratigical advantage. The bolts have already been handed down as punishment and it shouldn't be pursued any farther.
Also the simple fact that you have taken this conversation out of carracter is a shameful and discusting move. Haveing an OOC argument over something that was delt with 4 months ago is silly and you need to get past this point. Find some other way to gain advantages besides these under handed tactic you now try and employ.
In short, just to prove a point: nanny nanny boo boo, stick your head in doo doo!!! Quit acting like a baby.
Jason F.
Out-of-Character from Geoff
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
Methinks there's a reason that Tom suggested keeping things in the ruler channel... o_0
Patrick H.
Out-of-Character from Dementor
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (20 recipients)
Well atleast some rulers are gracious enough to share with thier realm what is going on. I am by far happier having a ruler that lets everyone know what is going on around them than one that leaves everyone in the dark. I am by far happier here than any where else I have ever played this game.
Well I have said all I really care to say on the matter and I hope you will all just let it go as it seems like a moo point to me on the capitol issue.
I wish you all the best of luck and I hope you have a wonderful day, and may your realms prosper.
Jason F.
Out-of-Character from Marc
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
Since I can only speak for Irombrozia, what I did was tell my players that Timothy had posted an email of Tom's from the D-List about the not-so-recent Luzian capital movement.
Basicly, I said that if Bruno wanted to move his capital back, Timothy and myself would be giving him a ceasefire of a week.
To me, a ceasefire is all of my nobles, (priests and infiltrators included) moved back to Irombro city, (with the exception of the other region lord) and staying there until the week is up.
Of course, this is up to Bruno. I don't feel as strongly about this as Tim does... mostly because I see Tom's email as more of a "you should have done something then... maybe next time" where Tim saw it, (if I'm wrong, please correct me!) as a "here's what you should have done... it's not too late" type email.
Like I said, Bruno, if you want to move the capital back, we'd gladly give you a ceasefire.
If you don't want to move the capital back... we'll just have to take Eno as compensation! :P
Marc J.
Out-of-Character from Delvin
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
You're correct about my interpretation of Tom's email, Marc. I believe that what Tom is saying boils down to this:
If you do something, and get lightning bolted for it, you should undo what you have done. If you do not, and continue to willfully profit from what you did to get bolted for, you are (in Tom's words) "dishonourable scum."
Because I believed prior to this that when Tom lightning bolted someone, he considered the matter closed, I was willing to give the benefit of the doubt to Bruno, and believe that he a) did not realize that the capital move was considered abuse, and b) did not realize that Tom's intention was for him to move it back after he was bolted. Given what's been coming out of Luz de Bia over the past few hours, I'm no longer so sure, but I'll reserve judgement until Bruno speaks for himself.
Timothy C.
Out-of-Character from Geoff
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
Interesting...
I had an entirely different interpretation of his email. It sounded to me like he wanted us as rulers to come to a consensus on the proper way to go forward, rather than him having to be judge, juror, and executioner for how we play a game...
Patrick H.
Out-of-Character from Danan Isig
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (20 recipients)
Sorry for intruding here.
Marc, I like you and how your last message was written, made me laugh. ;O Hope you join us after this war if the "evil" bruno lets you, this goes for the editor to Free South Times too.
And about this discussion..its so stupid to be honest and it seems its you that want to abuse something in the game, player behind Delvin, and you lost your so highly valued integrity when you decided to bring this old discussion up again.
If some of the old rulers recognize my name, regards from the wise DI =P Will be following this hilarious discussion thru my personal scribe Bruno. Take care
Drag M.
Out-of-Character from Delvin
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
Oh, and a couple more things:
I don't dislike any of you as players. I bear you no ill will, and I very much enjoy playing with you--particularly Marc, whose eponymous character Delvin hates with a fiery passion, but who I think has turned his duchy's misfortune into a brilliant opportunity for roleplay.
I also don't think that Grehk remaining the capital will result in Riombara losing the war. If that were my only concern, I would say just keep it there; we can take it from you and force you to move it back, and take full advantage of all the damage it will do to your regions to take several more regions from you.
But that's not my only concern in this, or even my primary one. My concern is with fair play, and with what's right and best for the game as a whole. That is why I am willing to grant an indefinite and unconditional ceasefire to Luz de Bia to fix up their regions after moving their capital back.
Timothy C.
Out-of-Character from Delvin
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
For those who say that I am myself guilty of abuse for bringing this up (in case my previous message doesn't do it for you), I would like to share with you a quote from Lois M. B.'s excellent Miles V. series:
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honour is what you know about yourself.... Guard your honour. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards."
I am doing what I am doing because my honour demands it of me. If it ends up harming my reputation, so be it, but at least I am at peace with myself. I don't have to look at any of you in the mirror every morning.
Timothy C.
Out-of-Character from Saiden
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (20 recipients)
I am what you can call a newbie to this game, as I have started playing for much less than you all. I also do not know as much as you all do rulewise.
But I'd like to point out something I believe no one has.. Tim/Delvin has been emphasizing on how rules are what most matters in this game, I disagree. From what I've read, punishment for the movement of capital was served. And as I said what I believe is most important is having fun, after all this is a game. I understand that for such thing there has to be rules, but rules are not meant to take fun from the game. This rule alone doesn't do that, but when you need to bring up this issue and insist so much time on it, then it gets annoying and you should move on.
If you wanted it fixed then the time for that was when the rule was broken or when the punishment was delivered. It seems you're getting everyone bored with this issue, but you do as you wish.
I know I'm new to this game, and also I'm part of one of the parties involved in this issue, but I didn't state what I think should be done, but the fact that I believe this game is about having fun which the rulers don't seem to get from disscusing things OOC.
Felipe C.
Out-of-Character from Julma Jaune
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
It looks like many of you dont follow discussion list, or you simply have diffrent view on things.
Tom stated that LB's are warning that something has been done wrong and it is 'strong' hint that you should not do this. He told what he would do if there is situation like there is now. Someone "abused" system and keep enjoying fruits of that abuse, he would bring this discussion to OOC ruler channel and try to convience other players to help fix things.
I dont know why some of you seem to be so annoyed about it? If there is rule that you should not move your capital for strategic reasons, then you shouldnt and if you do, you get lb'd. Clearly we thought LB is enough punishment about it, but it isnt. Since it is kind of not punishment at all. It is _warning message_ from author.
If the punishment is just LB, it is clearly worth to take LB and move capital at will, and thats why i think Tom wants us players to make sure that these things wont happen and if they do, we as players fix it.
Arguing if that is right or wrong to move capital for strategic reasons is pointless... it is wrong if creator of game says so. Now we are just going to see how many of us, rulers are ready to follow game rules... so far it aint look too good.
Jani K.
Out-of-Character from Dirrik
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
For what it's worth, I stand behind Timothy on this one.
It should have been done a long time ago. But better late than never.
Justin P.
Out-of-Character from Delvin
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
Bruno, I still haven't heard anything from you on this issue...do you have any plans to move the capital back? Or are you intending to continue to profit from your dishonest activities?
Timothy C.
Out-of-Character from Delvin
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
I would just like to remind Nhoc, and anyone who would support him, of Tom's stated official position on the capital move:
-- You now know that these PLAYERS have no honour in them. If they had, they'd have moved the capital back after receiving the bolts. They didn't. So they're disgusting scum. --
All you have to do to get out of that category of "disgusting scum" by Tom's definition is move the capital back to Jidington. Riombara will give you a ceasefire for as long as you need, and so will Irombrozia.
It's very simple, and it's very clear. There is no wiggle room in this. Just move the damn capital back, and we can get on with the war.
Timothy C.
Out-of-Character from Pholtus
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
My apologies to all for being late in adding my comments to this discussion. I have had a very busy few days, and was away from home most of the weekend.
First, its very easy to let your opinion be influenced by what will bennefit your realm or your ally, or hurt an enemy. Its even easier to point the finger at another and make accusations about their motivations. But it seems to me that we are being asked to weigh this matter seriously and as fairly as we can.
My take on this can be summarized as very similar to the remarks of another who already posted the following:
Tom stated that LB's are warning that something has been done wrong and it is strong hint that you should not do this. He told what he would do if there is situation like there is now. Someone "abused" system and keep enjoying fruits of that abuse, he would bring this discussion to OOC ruler channel and try to convience other players to help fix things.
I dont know why some of you seem to be so annoyed about it? If there is rule that you should not move your capital for strategic reasons, then you shouldnt and if you do, you get lb'd. Clearly we thought LB is enough punishment about it, but it isnt. Since it is kind of not punishment at all. It is _warning message_ from author.
If the punishment is just LB, it is clearly worth to take LB and move capital at will, and thats why i think Tom wants us players to make sure that these things wont happen and if they do, we as players fix it.
Arguing if that is right or wrong to move capital for strategic reasons is pointless... it is wrong if creator of game says so. Now we are just going to see how many of us, rulers are ready to follow game rules... so far it aint look too good.
Jani K.
The simple fact is that a lightning-bolt is no more than a slap on the hand. I would disagree heartily with anyone who suggests that its even a punishment. Admittedly, for some players, usually who feel they are unjustly bolted, it is a dishonor they cannot bear, and they leave the game. But this is the exception. For most, its a way for Tom to get the attention of a player and let them know, in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS, that he believes they are abusing the rules. We should be glad it exists, as noone would want to just suddenly be suspended or kicked from the game without some sort of initial warning.
But if you act like the lighting bolt "clears the slate", and you don't then need to correct or cease whatever abuse got you zapped in the first place, you're clearly missing the point. Tom is telling you that something you did was WRONG! How can anyone possibly justify not responding appropriately to such an obvious demand for retraction? (Before someone says to me what they've said to Delvin, that I should have said all this months ago - I was not honestly aware that people had been lightning bolted over these moves.)
To me, this is comparable to getting pulled over by the police and ticketted for speeding, telling him you've learned your lesson, and then driving away at twice the speed limit! The whole point of the lightning bolt is to correct the behavior.
Otherwise, if a realm uses a cheap tactic that gains them an advantage, having their leader take a few volts could be a very small price to pay - and completely worth it!
And lastly (its common position in many arguments) there is lonely old Logic. Think about what would be involved in moving ones capital. I can think of very few examples in history when this was done, and absolutely none from the equivalent time period to that in the game. Even if you can think of a couple examples, I challenge anyone to present an example that occurred during a war!!!
Joseph E. U.
Out-of-Character from Cedric
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
Sorry for being late responding to the current OOC discussion regarding the capitol movement.
Moving the Capitol of LdB to Grehk was the smartest thing to destroy Riombara or at least shut the door for any future expansion or recovering plans of the people of Riombara. From the moment of the movement it was pretty clear that the eternal border between LdB and Riombara would be Ardmore.
If I think that this is an abuse of the game mechanics? Absolutely! The reaction of TOM pretty much shows what he is thinking about that. And the fact that the rulers of the continent were motivated to discuss and solve this problem by themselves is a proof of the trust TOM still invests in us. A good and fair community solves its problems by themselves. A good and fair community is one not Gamemaster has to look after.
Let´s give a proof that Beluaterra is such a community and move back the capitol.
For sure Fronen troops will not enter LdB regions while LdB is organizing this issue and has repaired the damage that comes along with it.
Regards
Rolf K.
Out-of-Character from Handkor
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
Lightning bolt is something more serious then a simple slap on the hand. I mean, you lose your char after all...
Philippe V.
Out-of-Character from Scion the Skilled
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
Yes, My char, Talless the Tactical was bolted. And she was a very high ranking noble in Caligus, and one of my best characters at the time. Trust me, it sucks....
Robert W.
Out-of-Character from Delvin
Message sent to the Rulers of this world (19 recipients)
You misunderstand.
There are multiple levels of lightning bolt--I believe Tom calls them "lightning bolt" and "lightning storm." The former seriously wounds a character. The latter kills him or her.
Nhoc is still around. Thus, what struck him was a bolt--meant, in Tom's own words, as a warning. Tom also said that he expects the players to make sure that Nhoc does the right thing, and moves the capital back. That would, of course, include expecting Nhoc himself to do the right thing.
Now, personally, I'm expecting Nhoc (Bruno) to actually say something any day now...any day now.....
Timothy C.
Messages as of 15:03 BM time, 10/10/2006.
