Talk:Titan Reform

'No Defence or Clarification Allowed'

The two suggestions made here seem awfully time consuming on the part of the titans. I daresay the job of being a titan is burden enough without having to physically investigate both sides of each and every case brought before them. This seems like a change that may gridlock the system, especially if you consider how long such investigations could drag out depending on how far you dig to make a decision on a matter. --Revan 00:29, 15 April 2007 (CEST)

The clarification should obviously be at the discretion of the Titans on the case: if they need it, they should ask for it. The problem there is that the Titan Report page specifically states that they will never ask you for clarification, so if you don't happen to know what all the information they could possibly need is, tough luck. As for the defence, as stated in the text of the issue, there could be dozens of reasons the report doesn't tell the whole story--or even the report and the messages in game. I don't know about you, but I find it extremely unjust to be given a punishment, or even an official warning, for something that was not my fault, or I was given to understand by Official Pronouncements was OK, or...many other things. --Anaris 01:23, 15 April 2007 (CEST)

I think these are some very good ideas. I think the last point, Titan_Reform#No_Positive_Side_Visible, should be expanded to include a public list of titans decisions. It doesn't have to list islands or player/family names, just a general note that an account was locked for a day because the player told people not to go to a tournament, or something. I think it is important to know that actions are being taken, and what type of action they are. This will enable consistency, establish precedents of what is and is not punishable, and provide some assurances that the titans are actually doing things.

As far as being burdensome or time consuming, I really have no idea how much time it takes now for a titans action. Does it take more than 10 minutes per incident to read the complaint and render judgment? I really don't know. However, the idea that someone can file a complaint against you, and have punishment handed down without even getting to have your sa just doesn't seem right. Personally, I think this essay is very well thought out, and deserves some serious consideration. --Indirik 03:49, 15 April 2007 (CEST)

Tom's Base Point

The Titans are not, can not be and never will be a "court and trial" system.

If an equivalent to a court of law is your basis of comparison, then your comparison is flawed and will, of course, find many flaws in the Titan system. As Logic 101 teaches you: If your presumption is false, your result is meaningless.

View the Titan system in a different light and your reform suggestions will improve a lot. There are a number of good thoughts there. But they can't be applied if you try to fit a square peg in a round hole.

--Tom 14:25, 23 April 2007 (CEST)

My question is, as ever: why not?

This is not meant to be a whine, "Well, why can't they be a court?" I'm honestly puzzled as to your insistence that they are not and cannot be a court, given their function and position in the game. I believe that, first of all, they already are, for all intents and purposes and in the eyes of many if not most players, a court of BattleMaster law--and second of all, that it would only take some relatively minor changes to rectify the perceptions of injustice or unresponsiveness in the system.

--Anaris 19:33, 25 April 2007 (CEST)

You have no idea about the amount of bureaucracy and hard work a good court system requires, do you? I happen to have a bit of an inside view. A court system is simply not feasable in a game and on a volunteer basis. The best you can try is a mockery of one.

--Tom 21:23, 25 April 2007 (CEST)

Ah ha!! But we haven't tried, have we? --Shenron 15:03, 1 June 2007 (CEST)

And nor should we if Tom's assertion that only a "mockery of one" could be tried. A system that is open about its potential to be harsh/tyrannical/unfair and makes no pretenses to the contrary is preferable to a system that seems, superficially, to be fair but is actually still biased and unfair. At least it's obvious what you're getting the first way around. Westgate 04:00, 2 June 2007 (CEST)