Talk:The Rampant Lion

Old comments removed, again... --Indirik 14:37, 15 December 2006 (CET)

Just FYI...that quote was from John Stuart Mill in 1862. He was in England trying to bolster support for the Union troops in America's Civil War....it's one of Mike Cantrell's (char: Mikolas) favorite quotes of all time. -- Uceek 05:11, 24 November 2006 (CET)

Wow! The very best propaganda I have seen for long time! Even better than my favorite tabloid "Avamar Times". Keep up the good work. Finally the Rampant Lion becomes popular Liberator 23:37, 18 January 2007 (CET)

This newspaper hurts to read now. I once held Perdan to be the most honorable, benevolent, and faithful realm still standing in the East Continent. I actually believed the slogan of the Rampant Lion, that Perdan would always stand by the weak, the oppressed, those faced by the great tyrants who would destroy those for their own gain. Damn it Perdan! You believed those lies, and look at this now! Yes, the Islands are being led into ruin and destruction, you have stated examples in your article. Then why would you forsake your principles and side with the conniving snakes!? How could you Perdan? Elenar 04:40, 19 January 2007 (CET)

Elenar, you need to brush up on your reading comprehension. We seek justice. If the actions of a realm are unjust, deceitful, and destructive, then they do not deserve to be defended. No, Elenar, you are not the one that needs defending in this case. You yourself are the deceiver and the manipulator. Perdan would not stand behind a horse thief, and so neither would we stand behind the current Kalmar Islands government. Oligarch used to be a friend and ally of the Kalmar Islands. When El Cid Rogala stole the islands in a brutal rebellion, the entire island rose up in condemnation of the acts. Everyone, that is, except the Avamarians, who decided that this would be a great opportunity to steal a realm for themselves. So they abandoned the allies that had given them shelter. They ran from Oligarch as fast as their traitorous feet could carry them, taking with them hundreds of Oligarch troops, and weakening Oligarch's defenses in those final days of invasion by Sirion and Fontan. What a great way to pay back your friends for sheltering you, and giving you a chance to strike back at your enemies. The Avamarians usurped the government of the Islands from the Tyrant, and refused to return it to it's rightful nobles and government. Justice in the islands can only be reached by removing the stain and corruption of the occupying forces. That is what we are doing in the islands. Fulfilling our promise to the nobles of the Kalmar Islands that we made as soon as the rebellion of El Cid was complete. Our promise and commitment to the rightful inhabitants of the islands has nothing to do with Sirion, Fontan, or our recently concluded war. Your attempts to cloud the issue by making all sorts of wild accusations fools no one other than your own brainwashed citizens. Perdan will lead the islands out of their current destruction and ruin. But we will do it our way. And that way does not include a future of servitude under the control of the Avamarians. --Indirik 15:48, 19 January 2007 (CET)

Allow me to say that this is a hideous lie. Avamarians gave everything for Oligarch. They took over regions from Old Rancagua and Fontan for their new realm and friend. Namely Evora, Gadlock, Kazan, Poitiers were all taken by volunteer units commanded by Amraedil, Pontifex of Avamar Selective for some time. He left, like his comrades only AFTER Oligarch fell, apart only few who left earlier trying to solve the situation in Kalmar Islands while Perdan wasn't giving a damn. And they did solve it. Unfortunately Perdan later on, solved its own problems as well and decided to gget an easy victory against Kalmar. The only thing I regret is that while I was ruler of Kalmar Islands and Perdan was gangbanged by 4 realms (not five like what happens in Kalmar now) I didn't press an attack on Perdan. What a pitty to see such gratefulness as return. Anyway, mistakes are not made twice, are they? Dimitris 06:07, 21 January 2007 (CET)Dimitris

Amreadil didn't, so no one did it, is that what you're trying to say? Perhaps you don't know the whole sordid history of the rebellion and the following events that ended with the islands in Avamar hands. Kalmar Rebellion. There are numerous Avamar members that deserted Oligarch before it fell. They deserted Oligarch in its hour of greates need, and took several thousand CS of troops with them to the islands. You see, I know, because I was there, in the islands, watching it all happen. I chronicled the events, and did extensive research after it happened. You're wrong on so many accounts. Perdan did give a damn. We were shocked at the brutality of the rebellion. We were disgusted that so many Avamarians, who we considered friends, betrayed that friendship and took over the islands, a former colony and ally of Perdan. Avamar didn't go into the islands to solve the El Cid Tyranny problem. They went into the islands to take it over. They did take it over. It is unfortunate that, at the time, there was nothing Perdan could do about, as were fighting for our own survival. Well, we managed to survive, and now we can fulfill our promise to Old Rancagua, and to the rightful occupants of the Islands. And the result is what you see now. Avamar usurped the realm, and now they pay the price for that crime. And you are correct. Mistakes will not be made twice. The Avamarians had their chance to make things right. They refused. So it is now time for us to see that it is made right, despite the Avamarian complaints. --Indirik 07:56, 21 January 2007 (CET)

And how exactly "The Avamarians had their chance to make things right. They refused."? what was yours and Perdan's proposal apart from the Sirion's dogma you gladly adopted "You are evil, you die". Cause as far as I know they repeadedly tried to bring back the alliance with Perdan, invite all colonists back, lift all bans and make the Islands more prosperous than ever. And indeed the Islands prospered. They arrived to scorched Islands and after few months they had made them extremely prosperous and productive, despite the fact that they were fighting OR (alone and thus without any really hard efforts). Now the Islands had been changed to scorched earth again, because of the most aggressive and unbalance war this Continent has ever experienced Dimitris 11:04, 23 January 2007 (CET)

So, is it what you are trying to say that ALL Avamarians left Oligarch to join rebellion? Because I guess that you are talking about some people that were later expelled from Kalmar and then executed or deported. From the same people that you accuse now. And by the way I was there as well, as Lalakis went to fix things up. And under his preassure all bans had been lifted and all colonists were invited back. Instead Old Rancagua and Perdan preffered to destroy completely the realm and instead of a puppet colony receive a completely destroyed bunch of land. Not very wise strategically I would say...Dimitris 17:32, 21 January 2007 (CET)

Why does everything have to be an absolute for you? There were many Avamarian nobles that abandoned Oligarch, Not all, and apparently not Amreadil, but many. Check the link I provided above, and you can see for yourself. Lalakis didn't go up to the idlands to "fix" them, unless by "fix" you mean "turn it into new Avamar". His own messages to that effect are on file and posted for all to see. Denying it does not good. The government that was set up in the Islands by Perdan and Old Rancagua was removed, and various occupational governments created. Perdan and Old Rancagua are now going to remove those occupational governments. We are not interested in creating a puppet state with you in charge. --Indirik 23:47, 21 January 2007 (CET)

Have you any idea how many Perdanites left recently, or you think that I don't know? So you are saying that you prefer to create a puppet state in my realm with your men in charge. And is this fine with you? Very brave of you, congratulations Perdan. You have finally won a war! CitizenKane 22:22, 23 January 2007 (CET)

El Cid Rules!!!! --One 20:33, 21 January 2007 (CET)

Dmitris, you're a fool. Firstly, Kalmar was never a puppet colony. I was on the Senate from shortly after it's creation, and the one time anyone made mention of Kalmar was when a detachment was sent to help them with the monster invasions you had to split the realm to defend against and again when we pulled men from the frontlines and a very important operation to try and wrest control of the Islands. Unfortunately, they had to withdraw because they were receiving massive Equipment damage and had too few men to be effective. No, the puppet realm is KI as it is now, ruled by Avamarians, who were supposed to go to Avamar Selective and rule there and leave KI for Kalmarians. (OOC: Which was the RP reasons that the player of Lalakis used for the separation because, in his words, he "Really didn't want to get lightning bolted for gaining a strategic advantage) yet still retain their positions of power and region lordships. Yet, they are there, and the first Chancellor who tried going against AS for the good of KI (Thanfedal) was forced to step down. As for talking about us destroying the land; What the hell are you talking about? Have you received any looting reports of us targetting anything but recruitment centers? Not one peasant has died that wasn't necessary for the TOes to complete, which fit into the doctrine of Just War. We have refrained from the brutal tactics of war making that we had to hear the Ibbies and Elves bitch about for eight months! We, Perdan, are not trying to destroy the Isles. No, you have done that well enough for us, by harshly drafting a vast majority of the population and sending them to die as soldiers. And don't say they're volunteers, unless your RCs work differently than ours. Hynes 20:54, 21 January 2007 (CET)

(ooc: As I play Lalakis, allow me to say that his words had been quite different than what you suggest here! KI WAS for Kalmarians and for all those born in whatever land and chosen to become Kalmarians. Amongst them Lalakis my favourite and infamous character, thanks to you all :-)
Now, about the Puppet Colony...well...It was a Colony ruled by Perdanese and Old Rancaguans no? So, what makes you think that a realm ruled by Avamarians or whatever makes it a puppet Colony and when it is ruled by Perdanese or Old Rancaguans doesn't? I find this statement rather conflicting! As far as it concerns the Take Overs and teh casualties well..It is obvious that you don't count the peasant militia that are uprised every turn, disgusted by teh brutality of the Take Overs. So you have managed to make your colony a bit worse than it was when you first colonise it, in all economic, militarily and whatever terms you would liek to mention. Finally I would like to add that it indeed peculiar how Perdan so easily forgets his lands that are currently occupied by others, while it looks so eager to re-take "its" Colony. Maybe teh colonists count more than Perdan's own people? Becauuse I see few thousands of your peasant that should be considered "enslaved" right now. Instead you prefer to sacrifice them to save your skins, and find a pretty excuse, to win a petty war and free a handful of "enslaved non-puppet colonists". Hmmm...Doesn't seem such a brave task... But of course, who knows how a Perdanese thinks? It is still impressive though... Dimitris 21:42, 21 January 2007 (CET)

Don't worry about us Lalakis. We can take care of ourselves. You should be worried about where you're going to go when we finally root you out of your little bolt-hole in the islands. Yes, things in the islands are likely to get worse before they get better. But you do have to break some eggs to make an omelet. We'll fix it before we turn it over to the new, legitimate government in the islands. --Indirik 23:47, 21 January 2007 (CET)

Break some eggs? Just look the stats. In order for Perdan to establish a legitimate government (meaning a government loyal to Perdan and not to the Islands) has lost tremendous resources. And you also have a religion that protects the natural resources. Pffttt! CitizenKane 22:22, 23 January 2007 (CET)

I'd just like to drop my two cents in here: Avamarians were not the ONLY ones doing brave and daring things for Oligarch near the end. The three primary planners/agents in Rubber Ducky were NOT Avamarian. Namely, Charger, New Hope, and myself. Oh, yes, Lalakis... while you were leading your brave raids, I was alone in Fontan getting scout reports, burning food supplies, and sabotaging military installations. While you and your kith and kin were fuming mad about the criminalization of the word "Avamar", and getting all worked up, I was leading Sirionite patrols on a wild goose chase near Slimbar. While Avamarian TLs were fighting for the Rubber Ducky rebellion in OR (which I planned, and had non-Avamarians as well), I was knocking off OR TLs nearby. While Avamarian TLs (not all, but many) were joining El Cid's KI, I was hauling food from Perdan, through enemy lines, to starving Oligarch. Not only this, but, while the Avamarian activities were certainly brave, and many Avamarians did sacrifice greatly, they certainly caused no shortage of headaches for the native Oligarchians, and caused division we could certainly have done without. Thus, in conclusion: DEATH TO AVAMAR. -Hireshmont, last Prime Minister of Oligarch Vellos 22:22, 21 January 2007 (CET)

Most of what you are saying it is true Hireshmont. And as the Sirionites stated (check their newspaper and comments), Oligarch should have fall a lot eralier if there hadn't been some Avamarians, some devoted Oligarchian and some Perdanese that even disobeyed orders and either raided Fontan or joined Oligarch. However the official government of Perdan was rather absent to the whole situation apart a bunch of wishes they sent and a battle group that was send far too late. Am i wrong? So what I'm actually saying is that Perdan should look affter more for its allies and friends and less for the "legitimacy" of certain governemnts. And instead of teaming up with former enemies and above everything else Fontanese, Old Rancaguans and Sirionites that DESTROYED allied realms should have teh honour to stand up for what they fought for, for so long! Becase while Old Rancagua was attacking Oligarch, Perdan was teaming up with them, sending troops to the Islands to establish a colony, directly controlled by them. Dimitris 16:18, 22 January 2007 (CET)

And the funniest thing of all is that after months, not to say years of this clever tactic of abandoning friends and teaming up with enemies, Perdan is the only realm from those that defied Sirion and still stands, simply because Sirion allowed it to exist!!! Dimitris 16:20, 22 January 2007 (CET)

Perhaps we should ask Caligus if they feel abandoned by Perdan? In my opinion, you've placed too much blame of the fall of Oligarch on the shoulders of one of its allies. I wonder if Coimbra blames their allies instead of the realms that attacked it? Let's hope so eh? And although you like to prance around the island saying Perdan's turned it's back once again - you're absolutely wrong. This KI and AS were never friends of Perdan! You did plan on joining the 4 realm gang-bang on Perdan to obtain yourself another region in Perdan Mines. We all know you approached Sirion with the suggestion (that's right... the bitter enemy you've always fought against) and they weren't interested. Plus you had a secession to deal with. So stop already with the holy attitude. Thegep 05:04, 23 January 2007 (CET)

Of course I approcahed Sirion! And no mattter my personal feelings, it was my duty as elected representative of the People to look after primarily for the welfare of my people and not for my own feelings. Besides Kalmarian People never hhad any problems with Sirionites until recently. You forgot to mention something though. That the proposal to Sirion only came long weeks after repeated efforts to join Perdan in an alliance. Once Perdan refused repeadedly, it was crystal clear that its future intention was an invasion to the Islands. It was even more clear after what Doc suggested to Perdan in Sirion's newspaper. However I did a grave mistake... I didn't insisted on invading Perdan Mines but I wasted my time trying to find common ground with Perdan and then with other realms. Unfortunately that WAS because of my personal feelings. You see, having experienced those wonderful "Gangbang" wars, I never truly liked them or considered them noble and honourable. However, East Continent is much simpler than I always thought. Is there a chance? First grab it and then discuss it. This is the way things work here. The only sad thing is that I never expected to see such a vast coallition between Fontan, Sirion and Perdan the traditional super-powers of EC. Finding such realms concentrating on common targets really makes you wonder...If they have exactly the same perception about "Justice", "legitimacy" and "diplomacy" then what was the reason for fighting for so long? Now about Caligus... It could be satisfied by Perdan's behaviour but Perdan has also a good buffer zone protecting it now, hasn't it? And as far as it concerns Coimbrans, I admit that I know not, I know though about the opinion of many Ubentians, Rancaguans, Oligarchians and Avamarians. On the other hand and as I have always said, I admire Sirion for its constant support to its allies. You can ask any Fontanese and Old Rancaguan for more details! Dimitris 10:58, 23 January 2007 (CET)

Wow... Where to start... How about: You have no idea how the wars started on the East Continent. You lack any knowledge of anything that happened prior to the time your parents kicked you out the door of their family estate. Yet you feel somehow qualified to make across the board condemnations of anyone who does not agree with your amazingly inaccurate view of... well... everything, really. Your knowledge of the long wars, how they started, and how they ended is pitiful. Go back and read your histories before you continue to make such ludicrous accusations. As for allying with Perdan, of course we refused you. It has been explained countless times why such an offer must be refused. The current occupational government of the islands is now reaping the rewards of their own actions. You had your chance many months ago to cooperate in returning the lands to their rightful owners. You refused. Now you will be removed. --Indirik 14:39, 23 January 2007 (CET)

I don't know anything about old history of the Continent and for what you are talking about. I know that few months ago Perdan was the worst enemy of Sirion, Fontan and Itorunt and now it is their best friend. Did it hurt so much to loose a war? CitizenKane 22:22, 23 January 2007 (CET)

Nonsense. Perdan is nowhere near the best friend of Fontan and Sirion - Fontan still mutters under their breath about attacking them again at the first chance they can get. Itorunt, on the other hand, started negotiating for peace until they were held back by their confederate in Ibladesh and eventually tired of that and dropped them out of the proceedings and made their own very profitable peace deals. Itorunt never really hated Perdan - though we did have a deep dislike following events such as broken treaties regardinng killing raping and burning - and the fact that they now recognise and respect each otehr as mutually strong realms leads to their alliance and cooperation. --The1exile 23:06, 23 January 2007 (CET)

The1Exile hit the nail on the head with this one. Perdan has improved relations with these realms (particularly Itorunt), but has not, by any means, become fast friends with Sirion or Fontan. The fact that we are all working towards (partially) the same goal is mere coincidence. Well, not so much of coincidence really, as the KI/AS crowd have managed to systematically alienate and anger every realm on the island, individually and severally. So it is no surprise that most of the island would gang up on them, with no more purpose necessary than to just to get them to shut up. Perdan promised their friends Old Rancagua months ago that they would help liberate the islands long before Fontan and Sirion got involved with them. Both of those realms did not get involved until the name of Avamar reared its (now greatly despised) head. If you go back through and do some historical research, you will find that Perdan promised to liberate the islands while still at full war with half the island themselves. The treaty of eight nations finally allowed us to free up enough forces to make that happen. Uninformed persons, or those with an agenda, try to draw lines between unconnected events and either unintentionally get things wrong through lack of understanding, or deliberately draw the wrong conclusions in an attempt to mislead the gullible. Before you can make educated observations, you need to understand what the current situation is, as well as the recent past. Events within, say, the last year or two. Beyond that, few people have a good picture of what really happened. But once you understand those things, you can begin to get a true picture of what is really happening on the East Island. You will find yourself parroting less of the intentionally misleading propaganda that those other people are spoon feeding to the less knowledgeable. --Indirik 01:26, 24 January 2007 (CET)

El Cid is a sexy beast, yah!!! --One 03:05, 22 January 2007 (CET)

Yes he is, the bloody bastard! Propably that's why everyone is after him! :-)))) Dimitris 16:18, 22 January 2007 (CET)

Really?? I've never seen him, but I always pictured him as kind of weasly with a hunchback. Well there you go, lucky I started reading the discusion page. :P Thegep 05:04, 23 January 2007 (CET)

Who buys this?

Chi'n lifted the ban because he was tricked as you used the usual tricky methods of Perdan to get away with its crimes. But to what to expect from the usual propaganda Perdan is using, trying to persuade everyone that it didn't lost a war and not only this but it wins another. Fortunately we are more clever than this!

Jan --- aka the Chief

Tricked? Ha ha ha ha ha! I offered him an exchange: The lifting of a ban and the freeing of a prisoner in exchange for the freedom of Donna Ragna. He accepted. How is that trickery? Or are you referring to the fact that he didn't realize that Donna Ragna had paid her ransom mere minutes before he lifted the ban? No trickery involved there. At the time I presented the offer to Chi'n, Donna Ragna was still in my dungeon. I was rather disappointed to learn that Donna Ragna had paid her ransom, until I received a message from Chi'n, begging me to release a few other prisoners as a token of good faith. I complied, and released two other minor nobles as a sign of good faith bargaining. There was no trickery at all. Chi'n simply didn't bother to check to see if Donna Ragna was still in my prisons before he lifted the ban. Perhaps it is this shame at the lifting of the ban that caused Chi'n to torture Sir Sinebrychoff mere days later when Sir Sinebrychoff attempted to travel through the Islands. Only after he performed the dastardly act did he feel some remorse for his actions, which led to him turning himself over to our forces to atone for the torture he had inflicted. --Indirik 15:43, 6 February 2007 (CET)

Then what is this?
"Letter from Balkeese (2007-01-20 04:11:18)
Judge Chi'n did not notice that Donna Ragna had paid her ransom to get out of prison. Before he thought to check, he released Vince, without a ban, then lifted the bans on Sinebrychoff and Seth VI. Then he noticed his mistake.
Still, a bargain is a bargain, and for upholding his end of things, I feel a bit obligated to reciprocate. I shall be releasing a few nobles from Kalmar Islands that are in our prisons. No one important.
Balkeese
Arch Priestess of Perdan"
Dimitris 12:25, 8 February 2007 (CET)

That letter outlines exactly what I described above. Judge Chi'n and I were negotiating the release of Donna Ragna in exchange for the release of Vince, and the removal of the bans on Sir Sinebrychoff (who was banned by El Cid's tyrant government) and Seth IV. I sent the proposal to Chi'n while Donna Ragna was in the dungeons, then retired for the night. When I arose the next morning I saw a report that Donna Ragna's family had paid her ransom and she had been released. Several letters down was a letter from Chi'n where he admits his mistake. Here are the time stamps on the messages:

Ransom Money (20 days, 2 hours ago)
The family of Donna Ragna bought his freedom for 38 gold, twice the ransom you had set.

Letter from Chi'n (19 days, 16 hours ago)
I've made a rather poor mistake. I have done as you requested, and the Lady Donna Ragna paid her ransom.
So, may I request the release of Sir lielo - in exchange for Vince - and any further (perhaps two) Kalmarian nobles in your prison?

As an honorable woman, I complied with his request by releasing the only two Kalmarian nobles in my dungeons. There was no trickery involved. Chi'n made a simple mistake, and that's the end of the story. There was no nefarious plot to trick the KI judge into releasing prisoners. --Indirik 16:28, 8 February 2007 (CET)

(ooc: As I play Lalakis, allow me to say that his words had been quite different than what you suggest here! KI WAS for Kalmarians and for all those born in whatever land and chosen to become Kalmarians. Amongst them Lalakis my favourite and infamous character, thanks to you all :-) - Dimitris.

(OOC: As I played Alois,and was there, just let me say that's bullcrap, since Lalakis was the main guy who was "causing a rift" between Avamarian and Kalmarian nobles so you could have an IC reason for separating the realms, get the tactical advantage of fighting the monsters and having a higher income, and not get lightning bolted. Just suddenly deciding Lalakis would become Kalmarian after insulting Kalmarians for nearly a month is ludicrous from an RP stand-point.)

(ooc: Really? I would appreciate a message proving this, because according to the message I have kept, there is nothing indicating what you are saying. Dimitris 12:25, 8 February 2007 (CET))

Why keep using the same propaganda?

I mean isn't it useless? Your Queen has said that the Islands will be turned rogue and won't be liberated as you insist. Your general has said in short that you came to kill just because you can and he doesn't care for any political, military, financial or any other benefits you can gain. So why all this "liberation" propaganda? Who really buys this? CitizenKane 11:55, 13 February 2007 (CET)

Different people come for different reasons. High Marshal ][osferatu, being a military mind, has come to conquer. The Army of Semall came to remove the Avamarians from power on the Islands. Queen Evangeline wishes to restore the cooperative government as formed by Old Rancagua and Perdan. Her plan to do this is to remove the Avamarians, then allow the regions to rest for a while in a rogue state, so they can recover. Then they will be taken over by the new government when it is ready for them. None of the parties involved in conquering the Islands do it for any promise of personal gain, other than gaining some satisfaction of a job well done. When all is said and done, the Avamarians will be gone, and a new realm of peace will be ruling over all three of the Islands. --Indirik 16:26, 13 February 2007 (CET)

I can't believe the little stun I pulled is causing all this trouble. I guess I just PWN! --One 05:03, 14 February 2007 (CET)

That was the trigger for the whole thing. The real uproar, though, is what the new owners did with it, more than the original rebellion. Had the new owners restored the original government, rather than try to install a cheap knock-off of Avamar, the whole thing would have blown over in a few months. No worries, though. It's almost over. --Indirik 03:14, 15 February 2007 (CET)

LoF/Fontan skirmishes?

Second possible reason, the unexplained attacks across the LoF/Fontan border on murderous settings. Seems Fontan held a referendum on whether they should declare war for this reason, which returned a resounding, almost unanimous 'yes'. Are a few unordered skirmishes the reason for destroying Light of Fountain? Maybe more palpable.

It should be noted that Fontan also launched these "unordered" attacks, even before LoF had. So really, that might be the reasoning to crush Fontan. Hint hint. --The1exile 09:59, 3 April 2007 (CEST)

There is a "fifth" possible reason..the one where LoF did not vacate regions she promised to vacate in that said treaty that gave LoF this legitimacy your newspaper claims the realm has. This conflict is Fontanese anyway you want to look at it...the Lofers are/were Fontanese...and brother on brother violence is too often extremely brutal, may the peasants live to see another day from the potential onslaught that awaits there normally peaceful lives. I fear for those that do not fight for a living, that will surely die in the crossfires between what one party says Fontan is, and another that says what it could be. Whatever gets decided, should be decided by the "Fontanese," Lofers or the Democratic Fontanese. Doc