Talk:The Fronen Commentator/Edition:2

I believe Retravic is well aware of the consequences. But, you see, we in the CCA prefer to do what is morally right. Vellos 13:51, 5 January 2007 (CET)

ay! I love this! Morally right as in 'defined by Hireshmont'? Or morally right as in 'what profits Irombrozia?' Or morally right as in 'lets attack those whom we worked together with'? Or morally right as in 'lets break an alliance'? I admit to some confusion there...grin TanSerrai 14:06, 5 January 2007 (CET)

Why should Fwuvoghor have to listen to anyone regarding it's right of passage policy? Right now, Riombara and Irombrozia are enemies. Fwuvoghor and Irombrozia are allies. Riombara and Fronen are allies. Given these facts, I think it is only normal that Fwuvoghor denies passage to Fronen, as they may be marching to attack Irombrozia as well as Luz de Bia. So basically, Fronen is the one who denies one realm to help their allies, under threat of war. This anti-Luz alliance seems to have a knack for that. First Thalmarkin meddles in, than Old Grehk started playing the 'ally's defense' card, and now Fronen wants to threaten a tiny realm to let them through? Why don't you cowards march through Enweil instead, I'm sure we could arrange a nice welcoming comittee. You all were so courageaous when it was Luz de Bia against all her enemies, but now that Irombrozia is no longer fighting Luz de Bia, and Enweil has appeared on stage, you have to result to backdoor tactics to regain your overwhelming advantage. Old Grehk, Fronen, Riombara, and Alluran against a part of Enweil's forces, the remnants of Luz de Bia's armies and a small seceded realm with little military might... what a brave war you fight. I predict that somewhere down the line, you'll be pushing Plergoth and Sint to start the war with Enweil again, just to keep us away from the south... you are not warriors, you're weaseling politicians, and if there is one thing I hate, it's a politician. I spit on you, your banners and your dead. -Pizarro

Hm...maybe it should be mentioned that Riombara and Fwuvoghor had a defensive alliance for a rather long time. That was cancelled and replaced by a rather hostile intent without comment. I think that is defined as 'breaking an alliance'...And I'd like to get some more facts straight: This war was started by Enweil and Luz against Riombara - more than 2:1. When it was 'luz against all her enemies', Luz had an income base of nearly the same than her enemis combined, including the fact that Fronens capital was far away. Now its Riombara against Luz (both have the same income base), aided by Alluran on our side, and Irombrozia plus Enweil on the other side. If that is your picture of a fair fight...or of an 'overwhelming Riombaran advantage'...grin. Lastly - I do not spit on both Enweils or Luz' dead. They are courageous warriors - only our governments have differences in view on several matters. Thats about it. If you feel the need to spit on our dead - your choice.

You missed a few allies it seems. What about Old Grehk? They invaded our land in force to keep us away from the south, supported by assassination attempts on our nobles. Thalmarkin has already declared war on both us and Luz de Bia. Fronen is also deeply involved. Fronen and Old Grehk are superpowers much like Enweil. So yes, I would call Riombara + Fronen + Old Grehk + Alluran (+ Thalmarkin) vs Luz de Bia + Enweil + Irombrozia (who are more of an ally of opportunity anyway) an overwhelming Riombaran advantage. This war is bigger than the battles near Grehk, friend. I don't know much about the history of this war and how it started, but as a great philosopher once said: 'In war, truth is the first casualty', so I'm cautious when listening to such arguments. They do not concern me. All I see is the manner in which this war is waged, and judging by the numbers your side is throwing in, your idea of honorable combat is involving as much allies of yours as possible. Brute force, nothing else. -Pizarro

Why is someone from Enweil telling us not to fight RoF? They want to protect an ally, sure, that's understandable, but they do not seem to realise that is it that ally who attacked Riombara, our ally. And really, this could, and perhaps should, have been an act of war against the alliance, against Fronen. Siding with Iromboriza, RoF is also, in a way, declaring war on Fronen and her allies. This does not seem like a wise move to do. Iromboriza used to have my sympathy, but declaring war on Riombara made them look incredibly stupid (and now that I think about it, opportunist), and now convincing RoF to side with them against Riombara. This is not a simple "it's our land" thing, it's an outright act of war. Review this policy, fast, or the whole of Fronen might just want to do away with you once and for all, along with the rest of the CCA who just seems to like to pick at our allies. On a side note, I must say Avalon's involvement in the west in incredibly distastfull. Involving themselves in a conflict against our allies, even though it's in a way that doesn't break the treaty, just calls for retribution, which would also not break the treaty. -Chénier 18:30, 5 January 2007 (CET)

Fwuvoghor is part of the Ceded City Alliance, which in itself has nothing to do with Riombara or Luz de Bia. They just happen to be smack in the middle of warring realms, 'blocking' Fronen's way into the south. And given your latest reasoning, they seem to have had two choices: grant Fronen right of passage, or risk an attack. So in a way, Fronen is the aggressor here. And Irombrozia trying to get Fwuvoghor to side with them is a whole lot different than Fwuvoghor actually doing something. What if they want to stay neutral? You're not giving them much opportunities, are you? "Let us through so we can help destroy your ally, or be destroyed yourself." Would you have done the same thing if they had an army three times bigger than yours? There are other ways into the south, but unfortunatly for Fronen, all those ways run through Enweil. So my question remains: Why not grant Fwuvoghor their neutrality, and take the scenic route down south? Let's see how many of you make it to Grehk if you have to move through our back yard to get there... -Pizarro

Why not go through Enweil? Because far too many of us, in my opinion, follow the Order of the Great Dragon, and they have gotten in their minds that the idea of attacking you is rediculous, because we share this religion. A war with Enweil, I wouldn't mind, but this doesn't seem to be the interest of the others, which leaves us with 1 choice, RoF. So yes, even if their army was three times bigger (though that would still make it inferior to ours, if I remember correctly), I would advocate going through their lands. It is the shortest, most efficient, route. And yes, the CCA has a good deal to do with Riombara and LdB, as Iromboriza and the Kindom of Alluran were formed from their duchies. Fronen will not stand and watch Enweil, LdB, and Iromboriza gang up on Riombara because some minor realm felt like being important. It is quite obvious that the RoF, by cutting of Riombara from her ally, is doing an act of war. Fronen will either have to negotiate with them, deal with them, or ignore them outright and pass through their lands. Whatever she chooses, the most RoF can gain out of this is to spare Iromboriza's life (which was never our target anyhow), the most she can lose is... Her right to exist. -Chénier 19:45, 5 January 2007 (CET)

You missed my point. I asked you if you would still pressure Fwuvoghor if the roles were reversed, and their army was three times bigger as yours. As for Enweil, our ties with Luz de Bia make us an enemy of your cause anyway, and as such, we are in a de facto state of war with Fronen no matter what. Whether you fight us in Grehk or near our northern border should make no difference. Third, Enweil and Irombrozia only joined later in the war, when Fronen was already involved. Irombrozia was on your side for a long time as well, so that argument is null and void. Also, why is religion such a scare for you? Religion and politics are two completely different things. Many of my countrymen are Eretzists or Dragonists, while I myself am a follower of Qyrvaggism, yet we fight side by side. Many of Enweils enemies are Qyrvaggists as well, but I will not hesitate to strike them down on the battlefield. Religions are not bound by realm borders. Using them as an excuse to keep bullying Fwuvoghor is pathetic. -Pizarro

If RoF had an army three times stronger than ours? Than engaging them or not, we would not be able to help Riombara. But that isn't the case, and we have the opportunity, and therefore the obligation, to help them. I did not include myself in those that do not want to engage Enweil. I share you opinion on this point, and I would very much like to engage you in battle... It's closer than LdB anyways. And as for "bullying" RoF... The fact that RoF is weak will not stop us from aiding Riombara, that'd be moronic. If they were the same strenght as us, or slightly stronger, we'd probably engage them anyways, if so is RoF's wishes. I expect them to suffer the same Fate Avalon did when they attempted such a thing. The route though Riombara (and therefore RoF) is the fastest, safest, most efficient and most logical route, the one assuring our soldiers fighting LdB are in their best shape. We have no reason to make a detour. -Chénier 21:17, 5 January 2007 (CET)

Oh, and let me remind you that Enweil and Fronen are "Friends". -Chénier 21:20, 5 January 2007 (CET)

Trust me, "friend", if anyone wearing a Fronen emblem stands against Enweil on any battlefield, they will be treated as enemies. As for Fwuvoghor, had Dirrik not seceded, it would be Enweilian territory. Would you have attempted to bully us into letting you pass, simply because the city of Fwuvoghor happens to be the only link between the mainland and the Riombaran islands? What if it had been an entirely neutral realm? A more powerful realm? If I follow your reasoning, a quick and efficient route to your enemy is a valid excuse to harass a small realm into following your bidding. Seems to me you care little about the sovereignty of other realms, especially if they happen to be small and located between you and your allies. -Pizarro

Let me remind you that every time Fronenian soldiers were present when Enweil assisted LdB, we stayed out of the fight. And I cannot tell you what Fronen would have done if X,Y,Z, for X,Y,Z are nothing but "ifs", and have no created any kind of reaction amonst Fronen's nobles, as they aren't reality. I am not the ruler, so saying what I would do changes nothing. This incessant speculation goes nowhere. Fronen and RoF were getting along perfectly, untill RoF decided to be the "tough guy" and deny us passage, for an invalid reason. Our buisness down south is with Riombara and Luz de Bia alone, and none else. By denying us passage, they are involving themselves in a conflict that isn't theirs. This is not about bullying, as you seem to like to portray it. It is about some minor realm playing the though guy against a major realm. It is plain stupidity, and they will pay for it, one way or another. -Chénier 21:52, 5 January 2007 (CET)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Riombara and Irombrozia are enemies. Whether you actively fight the Irombrozians or not, you are still helping Riombara against them. The fact that you just focus on Luz de Bia does not change that, as your aid allows Riombara to fight Irombrozia. Fwuvoghor and Irombrozia are allies, so I don't think you could deny that Fwuvoghor is doing its best to safeguard Irombrozia from harm. The EXACT same thing you are doing with Riombara. The only difference is that Fwuvoghor is not helping militarily, but simply by denying your troops passage, which they have every right to do, since you are not their masters. They do not even need a valid reason. It is their land, they are a sovereign realm who apparently wish to no longer interfere in the war on any level. So by demanding passage, you are in fact bullying them into doing your bidding, as the only alternative is a war thay cannot win. It is a lose-lose situation for them, and a win-win for you. Either you get to march though Fwuvoghor to help the enemies of their ally Irombrozia, or you don't get to march through and you attack and likely destroy them as a whole. A classic example of bully behaviour. And those ifs do matter, in fact. They give us a valuable insight in your realm's policy, i.e. 'only pick fights with weaker opponents'. -Pizarro

Our realm's policies? It's more like "gloat about how good we are, but never dare declare war on someone else. What would people think of us!?!". That's how Fronen is being run, and have been for a while. I am not part of the council, nor senate, so I feel 100% free to state my opinion, even if it goes against Fronenian policies. Trust me, I'd like nothing more than a war on Enweil, but that just isn't going to happen. That is, unless Enweil declares war on us or reaches OG lands. So if you want, do me a favour, and try to get Enweil to declare war on us, I'll appreciate it tons, I'll even give you my special writing pen! -Chénier 22:18, 5 January 2007 (CET)

There is a long and detailed history between Enweil and Fronen, there is good reason why they do not fight each other. -- Neoro 22:23, 5 January 2007 (CET)

As a the King of Irombrozia, and a member of the CCA, and fellow journalist, and a reasonably intelligent person, I'd like to make a few statements. Firstly, Chenier, get your facts straight. The members of the CCA are RoF, Irombrozia, Heen, Khthon, and Vlaandaren. KoA is not a member. Secondly, again, get your facts straight. Retravic surprised every member of the CCA by her closure of RoF's borders. I hadn't heard a word about it, nor had any CCA leader as far as I know. Thirdly, you say the CCA is picking at your alliances allies. Laughable. The administration of Plergoth which allied with Fronen is currently in Vlaandaren, fighting the Plergoth which is very heavily Enweil influenced. And, also, do you say that Vice and VN are allies of yours? Nextly, your Path of the Great Dragon arguement is very weak. PGD and Qyrvaggism are variants, we're on good terms. If the PGD is so against fighting Enweil, they would probably also be against fighting Irombrozia. Also, keep in mind, the national religion of Enweil is Eretzism. Next matter to point out, Chenier, Irombrozia is not opportunistic. We stopped fighting Luz de Bia when they were in their darkest hours. Why? Because we refused to fight against a realm so weakened and exploited; there was no honor in it. Besides, our moral conscience had been justified, we had achieved the vengeance we desired, and, due to KoA's secession, accidently went over the top. Then, yes, we attacked Riombara. But, firstly, they had 12-24 hours warning, which means, yes, it was still a surprise attack, but no more than, say... Old Grehk's. Also, it was a surprise attack in that it was very swift, but any Riombaran that was actually SURPRISED by it must have been smoking some Sirionite herb. About RoF, attacking them is just bullyish behavior. Now, you see Chenier, here is where we differ. I determine how to run my nation, and our foreign policy, as much as possible by moral and ethical guidelines. You will note, since I came into power, there have been no lootings. In fact, for much of my generalship, I tried to refrain from looting as much as possible. Why? It's ethically unsound. Maybe sometimes it is necessary, but it's still unethical. Likewise, Irombrozia, even if we had the power, does not and would not bully. I sincerely hope your new PM doesn't attack RoF. In strengthening Riombara, Fronen aids and abet's Riombara's side in the War of Irombrozian Secession. Please note, KoA and LdB, together, have a HIGHER income than Irombrozia and Luz de Bia. You might say Enweil unbalances this; I disagree. Why? Look at how long Fronen has been involved down here. Look at the campaigns Thalmarkin has launched. Altogether, let's make an estimate. How many CS of Fronen and Thalmarkin troops would you say have passed through Fwuvoghor to aid RIombara? 75k? 100k? Well. Enweil has, thus far, send 26k total. That makes, what, another 74k until the playing field is level? RoF is doing the right thing and remaining NEUTRAL. In allowing Fronen and such to pass through, they were NOT being neutral. Now they are being neutral. The only true neutrality is an isolationist neutrality, such as the one RoF has adopted for now. Really, though, there is a very simple solution. All Riombara has to do is recognize us as an independent and sovereign realm, and end hostilities, and treat us with the same respect they give to other nations. Vellos 23:26, 5 January 2007 (CET)

From a rather neutral point of vieuw (Avalon). This conflict is actually non-existand. If i get it right, RoF Refuses passage for Fronen. Then i fail to see the problem. Fronen has a 20 000cs mobile army atleast (when they try). They already have passage trough Avalon so they could attack RoF without anything in their path. So gather your forces, Attack RoF, breach the walls, break them down to lvl 1. And then you have free passage ;) I do think Fronens point of vieuw is correct, now that Irombrozia gone aggressive against Riombara, and the "all mighty presence" of Enweil, means it is no longer an easy 4vs1 war, its now chaos, and RIombara really can use those Fronen legions now. And it is only a mather of time before The Kingdom of alluran falls, reenforcing luz again. My advice, Beat the crap out of RoF and help your ally's! We all know that once your army stand before those walls RoF will allow anything ;). Pelgrims 0:34, 6 January 2007 (CET)