View source for Talk:Dwilight/The Far West/The Ancient History of the Echiur Dynasty/The Age of Dynastic Quarrels: Shifts and Changes in the Echiuraen Empire

Wow. I guess this could be... kinda accurate to the region... if it was written by a foreign scholar with a wild imagination... no offence intended by this, but the region seems to have been inhabited by the Zuma and other related tribes. Can I ask from what angle this history has been written? Colonist? Translation of local history? It could just be my personal bias, since I saw creating ancient rp kingdoms in the east was stretching things a bit especially since most of the locals were tribal people whilst it was the colonists who were a radically different people that were arriving in this strange new land. The fact that the western lands are very newly discovered and that the closest thing you could see as a duchy could be an ancient mezo-american city state is... some parts of it make sense, but the medieval imposition grinds against me a bit.

Too detailed to be a discovery of the past, so is it OOC knowledge we wouldn't know? As far as I see things, the map doesnt show the sophisticated ruins of the numerous kingdoms that suddenly disappeared, but rather the cities that could be once they get built up. Some places have ruins but not all are on a massive scale and all would simply be chosen since they are good sites for a city e.g. level plains, rivers, natural harbours, rich land, key strategic or commercial positions etc. Thats not what I have a discrepency with though, but rather the incredibly detailed and very western history on an area that is inhabited by tribes. Not looking at having this deleted, more why you chose to write it this way. --[[User:Haerthorne|Aerywyn]] 10:43, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
:Delete is a very harsh word to use, but just making sure that I wasn't tending to sounding that way. --[[User:Haerthorne|Aerywyn]] 10:54, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


:I have to admit that I only skimmed this stuff, but here are my thoughts:
:*The stuff in this "Ancient History" cannot be considered OOC info, given it's prominent posting under the main Dwilight page. If it was intended to be posted as OOC info, it should have been posted as part of a player or family page, and prominently marked as OOC. There are multiple [[Template:Private|templates]] [[Template:OOC|available]] for this purpose.
:*It does not appear to favor any one family or character. i.e. The player of the Kepler family did not post that their great-great-great-grand-pappy once ruled the city, and they therefore have an irrefutable claim to the city. Posting that kind of thing on a family page is fine, but inappropriate on an "official" page such as this.
:*So far as I can tell, the page does not claim a specific time-frame for the events. i.e. It does not say "Two hundred years ago" or "Twenty years ago". I think the last page specifically talks about them being invaded and overrun by the daimons, which could be assumed to be these "Zuma" people. You can assume whatever appropriate time-frame you think you need to account for the changes between what is stated here and what is actually in place now.
:*Since there was no pre-written and approved backstory for Dwilight, one person's proposed history is as valid as any other's. If you disagree with this story, then start your own page, put up your own version or refutation of the info here, and link the two together.
:--[[User:Indirik|Indirik]] 14:48, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


:::Basically, when I looked at the area I asked, "how did these cities come to be, and who lived in them? How did they live and where did they go?" I imagine this history to be a far prehistory, and sort of tapered it to link into any possible addition that comes afterwards. For example, the Zuma, though never named in this history because they knew not that word, were the ones to invade from the south. Also, this history has taken place a great deal of time before we ever set foot on Dwilight and so much more can happen between the end of the Ancient History and the beginning of the colonies. There is no dates except what is inclusive (I have a dating system in this book that runs from the foundation of the dynasty, that is the historians reference point and would make sense for the Echiuraens, but not to us). 

:::The reason why I used the political systems I did was because they seemed appropriate to the land. Look at the cities and the region, it is very probable for a gathering of people to create nobility (in this case a family dynasty) and a political system similar to what we use (which for them went from a mash of little rulers to a unified empire). How else could a city or a stronghold have been built if it was not for a wealthy community of people? These I attributed to the dynasty and to the tribes who already lived there (for example Shokalom already existed when the dynasty reached it, it was run by a Chief). So I do have tribes and such, but the dynasty prevails (much like our nobility will when we reach it).

:::The author was a historian who lived right near the end of it, and if you notice he still thinks they will win (though if you really read it, and look elsewhere, you know for sure it's over for them). He was a member of the dynastic family (thus royal). They did not like foreign nobility, which they called outsiders (cogent to barbarians) and they built what they had from centuries of expansion and consolidation. Let your characters call it coincidence or design, but the ancient people of this region, according to this surviving history book. had nobility and influence over a wide region, much like the new arrivals will when they set up in the Far West. What they read in this book can offer them an outline of what they may do, or an example of what not to do. Seeds of ideas are there, they just need to be planted into someones mind. Dynasty? Empire? Invasions from the south? Hmm...

:::Also, just for fun, let's say a person's family mansion is in Echiur, if they liked what I wrote, they could say they are descendants of one of the founders of the city. Sure Chénier disagrees (see below) but it is entirely possible and open ended. 

:::What is already written, and what could be written later, can build off of this (like what I am trying to do in the Sallowsitte Cape) or can just assume it to be ancient history and no longer applicable. People build over things all the time, and people also like to cherish what they have inherited from the past. I leave it to be either way. [[User:D.west.ton|D.west.ton]] 05:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)



== "Lost" realms ==

Personally, I think associating oneself with a dwilight tribe and claiming to be a descendant of theirs should be the most demeaning and un-noble thing there is. Would you ever imagine Cortez claiming to really be a descendant of the aztec tribes? It's untinkable. This is a reference to Virovene. -[[User:Chénier|Chénier]] 00:45, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:I'm really not sure what any of that has to do with this page. I don't see anything on this page that could have anything to do with Virovene. --[[User:Indirik|Indirik]] 03:11, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
::I think he's just talking about the link between history like this and then working it in game... I could very well see how this could have all happened, but it uses way too many medieval concepts for comfort. --[[User:Haerthorne|Aerywyn]] 04:10, 5 March 2009 (UTC)